Topic: Additional Lift on a Shackle Reversal Kit

[Bounty Hunter]

If it were me, I'd ditch the craptastic SRS and look for some smoother riding shocks.  I'm done here.

[jonzjeepyj]

I hear you and agree with you.
 
I want to ask questions and find answers for my understanding.  Isn't that what you said this site is all about.  I see that your very opinionated about the use of shackle reversal kits.  There are benefits and drawbacks to every mod that you preform.  I use my 4 wheel drive LESS then 1% of the time.  Pinion angles are important to me as well as wear and tear and vibrations but knowing all the different cause and effects,  I can make a decision based on what compromises I'm willing to live with.  Not by what someone else tells me.  I could ask 4 different professional off road mechanics about SR kits and get 4 different answers.  Who do I believe?  I like to think, discuss, imagine and challenge ideas.  Not for the sake of arguing but for me to learn and others that are reading, so that we might be able to get into a tech discussion about the pros and cons of all aspects of a products design.  Maybe just maybe by people discussing and challenging ideas we could come across some ideas that we did not think of or bring to light different design applications and make them better. 

When upgrading my suspension I did ask a lot of questions like spring rate, what the kit included and the benefits of the different parts in the kit.  I was told that there were different spring rates for the 4cyl and the 6cyl Jeeps due to  the extra weight.  I asked questions and learned about the benefits and drawbacks of the T-Case drop kit,  brake line relocation brackets, bump stops, track bar drop brackets, longer pitman arm, sway bar drop brackets, shims, and YES new Hawthorn Hydro 8000 series shocks ( not the nitro shocks for the 4cyl / too stiff )  with all new bushings and hardware.  All of these parts were included in my kit.  I also upgraded and purchased longer SS brake lines and a new steering stabilizer.  They were extras.   

Just adding a suspension lift will change geometry, characteristics, and handling which are all give and take changes that we have to be able to live with.

So why the attitude?  I'm done here!!!  What's that ?   
If you don't want to discuss the topic, I guess it's OK but I do value your knowledge.  I just want to come to the conclusion BASED on knowledge not opinions.  We as a group have to figure the facts out.   This is after all Technical Forums / The Work Bench / forum.

[Bounty Hunter]

I'm exhausted by your tireless effort to salvage this worthless kit.  That is all.  Nothing more to it.

YJ's don't ride very well to begin with.  Then you add stiff springs and slap on a band-aid to try to remedy that stiffness. 

It's pointed out that the kit is poorly designed for any use, onroad or off, and you want to slap more parts onto the kit in order to justify keeping it.

It's exhausting.

Here's the accepted method of mounting the shackles in a SRS setup.  Disregard the angle of the shackles as there is no weight on the springs.

[jonzjeepyj]

I hear you again and agree. 

It's just when someone is opinionated about a product or mod, and they are biased about it's usefulness, it's hard to get facts.  I was looking for functional answers and in between your opinions you gave me some very useful principals and theories.  I now understand much better how the pinion angels are effected by the shackle reversal kit.  It hasn't effected me yet because I haven't used my 4 wheel drive since I've installed it.  I would like to keep the benefits of the kit without the bad pinion angles.  I drew 15 different diagrams to better understand what you were trying to get across to my thick head and have a much better understanding of how the whole thing works.  That was MY goal!  Nothing more nothing less.  I guess most members are used to other posters asking questions and wanting quick answers on how to fix minor problems without fulfilling understanding how the whole system works and how it effects each other.  Thanks Bounty Hunter for bearing with me.  Again your knowledge is appreciated.


The parts that were used are of good quality just used in a poor design.  I was trying to use the parts in a redesigned way so I could keep my shackle reversal kit and it's benefits and getting the pinion angles as close to stock as possible.  With as little as I use the 4wheel drive system.  Some of a pinion angle will be more than acceptable and I could accept more of an angle than most due to my very low use.  I also wanted to point out that there is another bolt in the bracket that holds the two spring eye brackets that was not pictured, in addition to the bushing bolt.  The third bolt in the bumper was left out until I can get new non torx head bolts to go in it's place.

I don't  understand how the whole track bar works and I'm going off everyone's opinions about it's usefulness and effects on weather I need it at all.  I did take the front one off last night and it seems to like to dip on the front corners and dive a little more in turns but other than that I haven't seen too much of a difference as of yet.  Some info would be great and would bring to light some of the cause and effects on it's usage.
*** Please bear with my questions.*** 

Thanks,   John   

[oldjeep]

I also wanted to point out that there is another bolt in the bracket that holds the two spring eye brackets that was not pictured, in addition to the bushing bolt.  The third bolt in the bumper was left out until I can get new non torx head bolts to go in it's place.
Thanks,   John   

Here is another thing that you don't understand yet.  The missing bolt holds most of the load and keeps you from breaking the little bolt in the back.  The big bolt that goes side to side is passing through a bushing - which means that as force is applied to the bracket the bushing will want to make it move.  The combination of the front and rear bolt keep that movement from occurring.  It's another shortcut - they should have provided a solid bushing if they wanted to utilize that hole.  Make sure you get the front bolts back in sooner than later.


The frustrating part of your "questions" is that you don't know anything about the basics of the way the suspension works, yet you continued to defend what you don't understand.  I understand that a lot of people think that because a big company sells a product, that it is safe or a good design.  Sadly that isn't true, especially as relates to anything that "bolts on" a jeep.   A great example of this is the crop of scary TJ cage kits on the market.

Your quest for learning is a good one - next time you might want to ask the questions before you buy and install.

[jfrabat]

I am no expert, but let me take a shot at the track bars...

The intention of the trackbars is to keep the lateral movement of the spring packs under check (so that they can move freely forward and backward as they compress, but they dont bend sideways).  In the front, the trackbar also keeps the geometry of the steering, since, as the suspension compresses, the distance between the pitman arm and the steering linkage changes.

Speaking from personal experience, on a YJ, you can remove the rear trackbar with minimal side-effects.  In fact, my RE lift kit instructed me to remove it, and to be honest, I have not felt ANY difference in handling.  

In the front, the story is a bit different; if you remove it, as you slam on the brakes, the front will dip, and the steering geometry will change, causing the Jeep to turn.  This is a result of the distance from the pitman arm to the steering linkage being reduced as the front of the Jeep dips, which in turn causes drag link to push the tire (and through the tie rod, the other tire as well) in one direction (cant remember which one).  This means that when you hit a bump, the Jeep will try to turn as the suspension compreses and then correct to the opposite side as it bounces up.

(If I am mistaken in my explanation, someone please let me know!).

[oldjeep]

That sounds like a good explaination, and to reiterate another thing that was already said - a shackle reversal makes brake dive worse and bump steer better because the mobile end of the spring now moves back under compression instead of forward.

Here's a great arcticle that a friend of mine wrote that has a bunch of pictures
http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=260281

[Jeffy]

I am no expert, but let me take a shot at the track bars...

The intention of the trackbars is to keep the lateral movement of the spring packs under check (so that they can move freely forward and backward as they compress, but they dont bend sideways).  In the front, the trackbar also keeps the geometry of the steering, since, as the suspension compresses, the distance between the pitman arm and the steering linkage changes.

Actually, the reason for the track bar was to stiffen the suspension so it moves very little.  Go back a few years to '80, I think.  Jeep got a lot of flack from the show '60 Minutes' when they did a segment on Jeeps and how easy they are to roll over. (this data was not 100% accurate.)  This was pretty big back then and stuck to Jeep for many years.  This why the frame was widened as well as the wheel track and the suspension was stiffened with the track bars.  The shift towards safer trucks/SUV's has begun.

Also keep in mind that a stock YJ shouldn't have any bump steer when stock and new even without the track bar.  You only start making problems when you lift the Jeep.  Still, when most people lift their Jeeps they are also increasing the spring rate.  So if you have stiff leaf springs AND a track bar, you suspension probably rarely moves.  Now go with a SOA on old stock leafs and bad steering geometry and you get problems.  Problems that were masked by the track bar.

[neale_rs]

That's right.  The track bar is in fact put there to force lateral movement in the leaf springs (just enough to prevent bump steer if properly designed).  Since leaf springs are not designed to bend lateraly, they bind and are unable to move freely.  This makes the suspension very stiff.  SUA and no track bar works well, virtually no bump steer.

[Bounty Hunter]

I hear you again and agree. 

I now understand much better how the pinion angels are effected by the shackle reversal kit.  It hasn't effected me yet because I haven't used my 4 wheel drive since I've installed it.  I would like to keep the benefits of the kit without the bad pinion angles. 

I was trying to use the parts in a redesigned way so I could keep my shackle reversal kit and it's benefits and getting the pinion angles as close to stock as possible.  With as little as I use the 4wheel drive system.  Some of a pinion angle will be more than acceptable and I could accept more of an angle than most due to my very low use. 

I disagree.  Your jeep could be 2wd for all it matters.  The pinion angle is a simple reference point on caster.  If the pinion angle is at the stock position, then we know caster is at the stock setting as well.  You steer all the time, onroad or off, so the angle of the axle is still very important.

[jonzjeepyj]

I disagree.  Your jeep could be 2wd for all it matters.  The pinion angle is a simple reference point on caster.  If the pinion angle is at the stock position, then we know caster is at the stock setting as well.  You steer all the time, on road or off, so the angle of the axle is still very important.

I was referring to my front diff and pinion and how it attaches to the front drive shaft and then to the T-Case, not steering geometry. I guess that's another can of worms I just opened.

The big bolt that goes side to side is passing through a bushing - which means that as force is applied to the bracket the bushing will want to make it move.  The combination of the front and rear bolt keep that movement from occurring.

In the original set up without the SR installed,  what kept the spring/spring eye from moving?  Answer the welds on the sides of the brackets that are welded to the frame.  With this slip over method ( which I agree is not the ideal set up ) is utilizing the original welds along with the  additional threaded bolt in the thin bumper and a large nut and bolt that goes through the bracket and the original hanger as well as the bushing bolt.  I do realize that as the mount gets longer there is more force put on the bolts and welds which is why it's probably even more important to have all bolts attached.  Like I said it was only a short term removal until I get a chance to replace them and it will be sooner then later.

The frustrating part of your "questions" is that you don't know anything about the basics of the way the suspension works, yet you continued to defend what you don't understand. 

My general opinion is that there are some redeeming quality aspects of a shackle reversal kit installation and some definite negative trade offs.  I'm trying to ask questions to figure out how this kit effects everything so I can make a choice on weather to keep or scrap it based on the trade offs I'M willing to live with.  Not based on the trade offs your NOT willing to live with.
As far as me having a limited knowledge and understanding of these systems,  I think I have stated this several times.  How do you propose I or anyone else for that matter, learn anything off this technical forum without asking  " QUESTIONS " if it's too bothersome or frustrating for you to answer them, why bother?  My goal, as I think most of you are aware of,  is not to provoke anyone.  I just enjoy the intellectual tech talk with people that share the same interests as me.  And hopefully in the process while sorting out all the pros and cons on how all this stuff works, someone may learn something as well as me. 

Your quest for learning is a good one - next time you might want to ask the questions before you buy and install.

I wish I had found this site earlier and had the ability to sort through this, with the patience of all the members on this site, before I bought the kit.  As for this particular modification it's too late.  I did what I DON'T like to do.  Take someones opinions  and hold them as truths.  I'm trying to learn something after the fact I guess at your expense but that IS what this technical forum is all about.  By no means am I defending this system.  Just asking my  "question" in a changeling way for all of us to learn.  I realize that it's probably second nature for some of you to have the knowledge about all the different systems and how they interact with each other , but for most of us it is a very basic and limited knowledge, with a eagerness to learn.

Also thanks for your responses and input
jfrabat
Jeffy