Topic: BIofuels - Solution or Lie or pipe dream??

[dwtaylorpdx]

Just curious what folks think about the Biofuel fad.

I happen to believe that Hydrogen is the only long term viable fuel... But thats me...

Dave

[Jeffy]

Just curious what folks think about the Biofuel fad.

I happen to believe that Hydrogen is the only long term viable fuel... But thats me...

Dave

Depends on what type of Biofuel we're talking about.

The problem I have with Ethanol is that engines aren't being designed to take full advantage of it.  100 Octane without having to buy the expensive race gas is a big plus.  Use it in an engine not designed for it and you get lower performance, mileage and it costs more since you have to buy more.

Bio-Diesel is said to run cleaner which I think is a good thing.  No difference in performance either.  No tax either.  The problem is you can't get it everywhere and once you do you know the Govt. will want it's cut.  Waste oil and Veggie fall under Biodiesel.  I'd rather pour it into the tank then down the drain.

I honestly wouldn't mind running BioDiesel.  If I had a diesel, I'd probably buy it as there are a few sources near by.  You can make the stuff at home as well.

[chrisfranklin]

With Bio-Diesel you're just talking a different, cleaner (at least for the end user) means to power existing diesels.  The vehicles need to be reworked a little bit to handle it -- LoveCraft BioDiesel in LA sells a kit for under $1000. 

I don't see crop-based fuels as being some kind of total replacement for petroleum or anything -- probably anything but.  But I don't think Bio-Diesel is going anywhere (Ca. does appear to be demanding tax levied on BD at point of sale these days, so wouldn't be surprised if other states get in to the game).   

Things might change a bit when manufacturers start selling diesels, diesel/hybrids, diesel/hybrid plug-ins ready-to-run on bio-diesel. 

Will have to see what happens with hydrogen.  Retail-level infrastructure for that seems like a bit more work beyond what's involved with a few people plugging their cars in at home or using a BD pump at the truck station.   

 

[dwtaylorpdx]

I'm really thinking across the board, I happen to believe the BIo/crop fuels
whether ethanol or bio diesel are worse for the environment than the regular crude oil products.

Most of the Rain-forest has been cut not for growing food but to make ethanol for instance...

So thats my question ,,, do you think the biofuel(s) are better for us in the long run?

I wonder if teh vegy oil isn't worse than diesel, becasue the oil is carrying some
interesting "natural" chemicals from the corn and soy its made of...

Its a mystery to me!
Dave

[chrisfranklin]

So thats my question ,,, do you think the biofuel(s) are better for us in the long run?

Overall, I'd guess not really (with maybe a couple of reservations)

The loophole with bio-diesel is it can be refined from waste cooking oil/grease -- a good amount of that is already around across the U.S. without the need to clear new land for soybeans etc.   You just use a processed version of what food restaurants chuck in the trash already (at least that's the theory). 

However, how efficient it is for some small bio-diesel outfit to pick up waste-grease locally to then refine locally for sale by the gallon as bio-diesel? Probably not very.   Cost of doing so is probably quite high and probably ultimately not cost competitive with some big energy outfit that's producing BD directly from soybean crops.   

With Ethanol or BD, I doubt either is going anywhere.  Farmers are probably making money on it and it's a fairly easy "enviro-sell" to the public vs. petroleum .

How great is it all for the environment?  I don't know about the chemicals produced.  But you certainly have cases like Brazil where a good amount of rain-forest has effectively been "paved over" in favor of ethanol crops.  That hasn't proven a very popular move, so I doubt people in the U.S. will be demanding national forests be cleared for biofuel crops or anything. 
 

[chardrc]

Ethanol would not be around if it wasn't for the government subsidy's and corn growers association lobying. its just not cost effective and there is something very wrong with taking food out of the market to make into a fuel. (especially with how they use it now without motors that realy take advantage of it like Jeffy said)

Bio-diesel seems more viable to me when it is made form used cooking oil form restaurants or what not, nothing wrong with using waste as a fuel in my book... but need to be careful about cold weather, and algi type stuff growing in it if you get some water in your fuel tank.

overall bio fuels are not a solution.

[Castr8r]

 Some misconceptions going on here.  The corn that is used to produce ethanol is not human food, it's animal food, and much of it damaged beyond use as animal food.  After the ethanol is produced, the Brewer Grains left are animal foods that have some of the food value enhanced by the fermentation process.  The ethanol is added to gasoline as an oxygenate that helps reduce some types of pollution.  There is a net gain in energy in growing corn for ethanol now; there didn't use to be.  The latest research is in biomass production of ethanol useing wood chips, weeds, grass, etc., so the "food" corn being used for ethanol production may soon be a specious argument.  Remember, this industry is still in it's infancy, and is getting better and more efficeint all the time.
 
 Biodiesel is still very much in it's infancy, but shows similar potential for growth and development.  For instance, there are several "weeds" that have seeds with a high oil contaent- we may end up growing some of them for fuel some day.  Another very promising pilot programm that is producing fuel is one that routes the CO2 from a coal fired power plant thru a "soup" of algae that produce oil from the process of photosynthesis,  American ingenuity at it's best!

 At the present time, biofuels are not 'the' solution, but they are part of it.  The future may hold someting that is completely beyond what we have now.  Hydrogen has some unique problems-energy density, the need to be highly compressed, fueling problems.  Electric is  very limited in potential in  the USA due to the distances we travel, besides being a major pollution problem(rare earth mining, nickel mining and processing, coal fired power plants).

 And if you think that the tax break for the biofuel industry as well as subsidies for farmers are bad, look at the breaks that the oil industry gets...

[dwtaylorpdx]

 

Last I saw over 80% of the ethanol used in fuel comes from out of the country...
I know virtually all the methanol comes from Brazil... They get it as a byproduct
of their paper manufacturing...

The problem I think that is kind of alluded to is that if it takes oil or a oil product
to make another fuel, including fertilizer ,, its not sustainable.

There are processes that make hydrogen via filtering rather than electrolysis, I think that's the key.,..

Most of the issues with hydrogen are wrapped around pretty basic technology
that we have not bothered to invest ,, IE the money is subsidizing the oil companies... :)

We are going to run out of viable top soil in the US long before Oil.
The levels we have to augment soil are climbing faster every year,
the grain belt has lost almost 50% of the farmable topsoil in the last 100 years..

Its definitely a complex problem with no single solution...

Dave

[littledavid123]

Bio fuel is another foolish liberal idea that cannot sustain itself at current prices without government subsidies (we are paying for it) If all of the corn grown within the U.S. were turned into bio diesel it would not even sustain us for 1 day.

There is a better way however... Natural gas has now been discovered in such vast quantities that it could fuel our economy for hundreds of years. At current prices the equivalent to 1 gallon of gas of natural gas would cost you $1.09 per gallon. And our ability to store safely in a vehicle has already been proven (propane).

Also if you want to see an immediate drop in the price of gasoline and or diesel than have the government outlaw heating oil in the Northeast and replace it with natural gas. I have a jar of bio-fuel in my office and it started growing algae in less than 4 months, yes it is really cool to fuel your jeep with french fry oil and I salute those who do. But is it  practical commercially, no.


Dave

[sharpxmen]

Propane is stored in liquid form, Natural Gas can  be compressed, the difference in the storage size if pretty significant and not suitable for DD. I've seen buses powered by Natural Gas, there are 3 huge tanks on top of them and they have to refuel for each round trip in the city.

[melbill]

I saw a program on Discovery (I think) a few months ago about hydrogen powered cars.  Work in the UK has made the vehicles feasible (I don't remember the range), and they made refueling stations also.  The refueling stations use solar panels for electrolysis, could be replaced by wind/solar combo in some areas.  The only "waste" is water. 

I don't think any single answer will be a solution to come and save the world.  I think it will take a combination of solutions.  Possibly one more popular in cities, and another in rural areas.  Possibly like gas and diesel being available at the same station.  Maybe if we removed oil from other uses we would have no problem with it for vehicle fuel.
 

[chrisfranklin]

It's just my opinion, but my guess is that most of the interest in biofuels, plug-ins at the national governmental level is for strategic reasons, not environmental ones. 

Some might suggest that, given our recent military interventions abroad, the U.S. has effectively secured access to enough petroleum to power all the vehicles in the U.S. and its allies for the next thousand years or more. 

If that's the case, why the push for all the biofuels, why the electrics, why the $3-$4 a gallon gas prices (caused by private or public speculators unknown)?  WTF, right? 

Some might answer that the possession of the aforementioned petroleum "access" is that much more powerful geopolitically if the possessor itself develops less and less need for the "access." 

[sharpxmen]

hmm, not sure about 1000 years thing - the world's only been massively using oil in the last 100 years or so and many places in the world have run dry. But on the other hand is unknown how much is in there anyway, so that remains to be seen (maybe you're right, who knows). Biofuel (biodiesel, ethanol, whatever) is not the answer, in the long run new technology will be but i don't think will occur in our lifetime or at least not a major technological revolution in transportation but i would def like to be wrong on this one.

[chrisfranklin]

hmm, not sure about 1000 years thing - the world's only been massively using oil in the last 100 years or so and many places in the world have run dry. But on the other hand is unknown how much is in there anyway, so that remains to be seen (maybe you're right, who knows). Biofuel (biodiesel, ethanol, whatever) is not the answer, in the long run new technology will be but i don't think will occur in our lifetime or at least not a major technological revolution in transportation but i would def like to be wrong on this one.

Good point Sharp.  The four-figure time-frame was associated with a somewhat limited percent of the world's population -- U.S. and allies.  If we're talking a time-frame for the global population -- one apparently increasingly buying autos -- then it's who knows. I'd hazard a century or two, but I have no geological experience

[Jeffy]

hmm, not sure about 1000 years thing - the world's only been massively using oil in the last 100 years or so and many places in the world have run dry. But on the other hand is unknown how much is in there anyway, so that remains to be seen (maybe you're right, who knows). Biofuel (biodiesel, ethanol, whatever) is not the answer, in the long run new technology will be but i don't think will occur in our lifetime or at least not a major technological revolution in transportation but i would def like to be wrong on this one.

'Dry' doesn't mean there is no oil in the well.  It just the cost of recovering it is higher then what they are willing to invest.  Many old wells in the US have started pumping again when the price per barrel went to $100 a barrel.