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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: stan98tj on February 07, 2013, 07:41:54 AM
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Talked with HP Motorsports yesterday and my plans for a TDi swap are pretty much all set, got the answers I needed but the conversation did raise a few issues I hadn't originally thought of. My 4.56 gears just MAY push my RPMs a bit too high. HPA generally runs 4.11 with the 5spd on 33s and wants you to be right around 2200 rpm at 60mph. My current set up has my RPMs at 2850-3k at 60mph. This isn't a real issue for the 4banger as it's pretty much in the powerband at those turns. The diesel, on the other hand will want to turn lower.
Two solutions: regear or run 35s. HPA suggested I absolutely run 35s as it won't affect the power, the motor will turn the 35s with ease, my fuel economy will be intact and it will bring the turns down. This, however brings up a different issue. I had planned to keep my current LP Dana 30 as the 4.56 gears weren't near the capacity for the carrier and I felt that on 33s I wasn't in real danger. However, if i have to step up to 35s, I don't think I'd like to sit on an lp and would feel better with an HP 30. I also need to be conscious that there will be a significant increase in torque with the swap, somewhere in the neighborhood of 300ft lb, so I feel like I may want to beef it up a bit and prep it for the weight of the tires with some sleeves, gussets and ball joints (perhaps synergy). I have plans to run RCV shafts as well, but I would have ran them in the low pinion as well if I were staying on 33s.
Thoughts? Suggestions to do this in a fiscally conservative fashion? Suggestions where I could get the sleeves and good set of ball joints for a decent price?
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You should be ok on 35s. That said, I haven't gone to 35s because it would require more mods (maybe fenders, bumpstops, or body lift) and every mod takes up a lot of time, so due to lack of time, I've just stuck with 33s.
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Damn...I'm glad you're going the same route as me. I hope to do the conversions as well this summer assuming I get a nice bonus. I imagine I should be good with my 37's and 4.88's. I hope.
What is your schedule for install? New engine or did you find a used one? I haven't come across a nice enough used one and may just go new. My logic is that it will basically be like getting a new car for under $20,000....at least that's what I expect any of you to tell my wife if we ever meet....
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Damn...I'm glad you're going the same route as me. I hope to do the conversions as well this summer assuming I get a nice bonus. I imagine I should be good with my 37's and 4.88's. I hope.
What is your schedule for install? New engine or did you find a used one? I haven't come across a nice enough used one and may just go new. My logic is that it will basically be like getting a new car for under $20,000....at least that's what I expect any of you to tell my wife if we ever meet....
Glad I'm not the only one looking at this swap! I came in way under 20k when I figured the costs. The HPA tech is going to send me an email with all the stuff i need from them if I were to pull from a doner car and what I would need if I got it from them.
Basically ball park you're looking at:
$1495.00 for the truss kit which has all the mounting stuff
$1295.00 Transmission adapter
$1395.00 Turbo
$595.00 for the ECU flash (free if purchased with truss and trany pack)
$1595.00 for the wiring harness. Not absolutely needed if you can do your own. I'll prob get it, though to keep installation simple
HPA sells a new TDi for around $7000 (or 6k, can't recall). That's brings the total around $13,000. There are some other misc items, such as the fuel pump and gas pedal. I plan on looking to see if i can get a used TDi first. I had spotted some for around $2500 with about 80k on the clock. The HPA guys had said to try and find one with under 80k for the swap.
My plan is to do the bulk of the install myself. Pull the engine out, install the new one and then get a shop to do the wiring. I figure if I go with the wiring harness, that 1500 spent will save me in the end as the shop should be able to get it hooked up quicker.
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why do you have to buy the turbo? (what's included with that?)
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It also seems as though buying in package form from them saved a bunch as well.
SO i may just purchase the stage 1 and 2 package and then source the engine elsewhere. That would bring it to 4699 without the engine.
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why do you have to buy the turbo? (what's included with that?)
It's actually the intercooler package and K&N filter as well as the water pump. I thought I had seen turbo kit somewhere...
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Yeah...I was just planning on buying everything from them and having my Jeep buddies for an install party weekend.
I like it since it would be a new engine and they can chip it for more horsepower. Is the perfect solution for my Jeep as it is a daily driver putting on 80 miles a day. Want to do it before any issues crop up with my current 4-banger. Has been running perfectly though.
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Yeah...I was just planning on buying everything from them and having my Jeep buddies for an install party weekend.
I like it since it would be a new engine and they can chip it for more horsepower. Is the perfect solution for my Jeep as it is a daily driver putting on 80 miles a day. Want to do it before any issues crop up with my current 4-banger. Has been running perfectly though.
The tech said most folks are seeing 29-30 highway mpg running 33s-35s. 4.88 is a pretty deep gear, you may find yourself as I probably will and either need to regear or change tire size. In your case, I'm not sure if 40s are a viable solution.
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I could go that big with some minor mods, but don't want to...love the 37's for their performance and look.
Re-gear wouldn't be a big deal other than cost since I'm running D60's front and rear, but would probably keep the 4.88's just to see how it runs. I imagine it would be fine with my 5-speed.
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Actually, now that I read your first post again I think I'll be fine. I usually have to drop down to fourth gear now at about 65 mph/2500 rpm. I imagine I would be in their sweet spot for 60 in 5th gear...will check when I get home...
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Moz, do you plan on using their standard tune package for 265ft lb torque or do you plan on having them tune it more? I asked them about 300ft lb and they said they would more than likely be able to dial it up. The guy told me about one of their customers from the Netherlands had them tune out to 400ft lbs :yikes:
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i would think it develops a big cloud of black smoke to get it to 400ftlb, what's the point anyway - will kill your mpg, is not like you'll get it at idle so won't help with crawling.
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RCV's and all the other mods mentioned are a ton of money to throw at a d30. You still have a small R&P, small brakes, and Non-serviceable bearings that will wear quickly.
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If you swap the front axle just jump from the D30 to a D60. There is just a small tire size range that a front D44 will handle that a D30 won't also handle, maybe 36 inch tires, and then you are into D60 territory anyway. The weak link is the u-joint, D30s (newer ones) and D44s (non-JK) generally use the same size.
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If you swap the front axle just jump from the D30 to a D60. There is just a small tire size range that a front D44 will handle that a D30 won't also handle, maybe 36 inch tires, and then you are into D60 territory anyway. The weak link is the u-joint, D30s (newer ones) and D44s (non-JK) generally use the same size.
i feel like i will lose ground clearance with the d-60 that i gained when going to 35s. The u joints won't be an issue as I will have RCVs. The idea to run the HP 30 came about when I realized i could pull one for at most 150, and recently found out I could perhaps even get one for under 100 bucks. If I run the HP30, i get to retain my $650 locker. I got a buddy who runs the HP30 on his 35s with reg chromoly shafts and spicer joints and just BEATS on the thing and his 4.0 has yet to blow that axle. 35s were NEVER my plan as I always liked the idea to run 33s on around 3" lift and be just as capable as the bigger rigs. Now, I may find myself in a situation where running 35s may be better than re-gearing...
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Moz, do you plan on using their standard tune package for 265ft lb torque or do you plan on having them tune it more? I asked them about 300ft lb and they said they would more than likely be able to dial it up. The guy told me about one of their customers from the Netherlands had them tune out to 400ft lbs :yikes:
I was just planning on their standard tuning since it comes with the package...enough torque in there. really want it for the hp.
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Projects gonna get BIG really fast if you don't watch it. If you need higher gears buy some stock axles. Then sell yours. Or find someone who will want to do the swap and then you trade and get some money?
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Projects gonna get BIG really fast if you don't watch it. If you need higher gears buy some stock axles. Then sell yours. Or find someone who will want to do the swap and then you trade and get some money?
The issue I'm having is worrying the low pinion d30 won't hold up well to the increased torque, even if I stay at 33s. I thought over a d44 swap, but i would have to buy a new front locker ($600+) and maybe build up that axle as well...so i figured I'd save on the locker by going with an HP 30 so I could re-use my locker.
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The issue I'm having is worrying the low pinion d30 won't hold up well to the increased torque, even if I stay at 33s. I thought over a d44 swap, but i would have to buy a new front locker ($600+) and maybe build up that axle as well...so i figured I'd save on the locker by going with an HP 30 so I could re-use my locker.
I don't think it's going to be a big problem unless you really romp on it. I know of several CJ's still running D30's with V8's. If you're worried, swap in a HP30. Would be cheaper then doing a D44 or D60.
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HP D30 is pretty cost effective but if you go any bigger with the front axle skip the D44 and just go straight to the D60. The main point is that a front D44 is mainly good for 36 inch tires, with 35s you can stick with the D30 and with 37s or bigger you would be better off with the D60.
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d60 is gigantic, don't get me wrong - it is very strong and you can probably run 42'' tires on it but it's super heavy from what i gather and overkill imo even for 37s - Art is probably the authority in this matter so maybe he can give his 2 cents on it.
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Basically I have done a good amount oif Hammer trails on 37" tires and a Front D60 and a 14bolt in the rear which is bigger yet. It makes it pretty darn bullet proof you get a street driveable Jeep you can take to some really gnarly trails and go to town without to much fear of breaking. Then when you want to get super crazy, you roll the fourties under it and have even more fun. Swap the 37's back on and happily drive to work after a weekend of serious flogging. What more is there to be said if you built it with a lot of power, then somewhere along the line you will try to test it's limits, so might as well go all the way from the get go
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Online friend tried to race the EMC on a Rubicon Dana 44 front axle with 37's as expected it died an untimely death at the first rock section he had to get through, got close to the end of it, but after that he would have had to do 5 more hard trails.
Did real well in the desert though he ran 5 th in that part and topped out at 77 mph through the whoops, not bad for our hillbilly suspension tune.
When we started on Monday morning the Jeep was down right dangerous to drive you could flip it any time you wanted too, without a lot of effort
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Online friend tried to race the EMC on a Rubicon Dana 44 front axle with 37's as expected it died an untimely death at the first rock section he had to get through, got close to the end of it, but after that he would have had to do 5 more hard trails.
Did real well in the desert though he ran 5 th in that part and topped out at 77 mph through the whoops, not bad for our hillbilly suspension tune.
When we started on Monday morning the Jeep was down right dangerous to drive you could flip it any time you wanted too, without a lot of effort
Thanks for this update, I was very interested in knowing how it would do.
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Basically I have done a good amount oif Hammer trails on 37" tires and a Front D60 and a 14bolt in the rear which is bigger yet. It makes it pretty darn bullet proof you get a street driveable Jeep you can take to some really gnarly trails and go to town without to much fear of breaking. Then when you want to get super crazy, you roll the fourties under it and have even more fun. Swap the 37's back on and happily drive to work after a weekend of serious flogging. What more is there to be said if you built it with a lot of power, then somewhere along the line you will try to test it's limits, so might as well go all the way from the get go
and here I thought I wasn't going to even consider D-60s...then Art chimes in...
Guess I really have a lot of thinking to do. I know I def don't ever want to go up over 35s. I'd actually like to stay at 33s, but if I end up reving too high, I would just rather size up to 35s rather than (re)gear down to 4.11.
Then again, a bullet-proof D-60 build...
Art, how noticable is the clearance lost when going from 33s on a Dana 30 to 35s on a Dana 60?
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A D60 diff housing hangs 1" lower than a D44. I have found though that the front diff is actually fairly easy to push over rocks and what not. The rear is a bit more trouble some, Gotta learn how to lift the diffs over stuff, takes kind of an awareness of where they are located and how to not hang em up. Work most of the time for me :dance: If not there is always a rock to be found to stuff under a tire for some extra clearance or if all else fails a winch. I like the wheeling with very little or no worries about breaking.
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and here I thought I wasn't going to even consider D-60s...then Art chimes in...
Guess I really have a lot of thinking to do. I know I def don't ever want to go up over 35s. I'd actually like to stay at 33s, but if I end up reving too high, I would just rather size up to 35s rather than (re)gear down to 4.11.
Then again, a bullet-proof D-60 build...
Art, how noticable is the clearance lost when going from 33s on a Dana 30 to 35s on a Dana 60?
Unless you shave the housing a D60 will be a bit of a handicap with 33's on a rocky trail. You end up running into and getting hung up if you're not careful. At least you won't be breaking axles though. The last time I was on the Rubicon we had a YJ with D60's and 33's in our group.
Well, as long as you drive it like it had a stock axle, you should be fine with the D30. Swap to a HP30 if you have the time. Then save for a D44 if it ever breaks. Upgrade the shafts on the D44 and it should be fine.
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Unless you shave the housing a D60 will be a bit of a handicap with 33's on a rocky trail. You end up running into and getting hung up if you're not careful. At least you won't be breaking axles though. The last time I was on the Rubicon we had a YJ with D60's and 33's in our group.
Well, as long as you drive it like it had a stock axle, you should be fine with the D30. Swap to a HP30 if you have the time. Then save for a D44 if it ever breaks. Upgrade the shafts on the D44 and it should be fine.
The only first hand knowledge I have of the HP 30 lies with 2 guys i know. My buddy Dom, who I've featured in a bunch of my posts/videos, runs 35s and just goes to town on the trail. He is currently saving up to build the D30 as i have intention to. Another guy i know, Erich, has a 4banger on 35s with an hp 30. He says his HP 30 was one of the more important upgrades for his rig. He regularly wheels, wheels it hard and his Jeep spends a good amount of time in the rocks. I understand the bullet proof advantage of D60s, but are they truly needed for 35s? Will a built up HP 30 not be adequate?
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for 35s D60 is overkill imo not to mention the lower hanging diff housing.
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The only first hand knowledge I have of the HP 30 lies with 2 guys i know. My buddy Dom, who I've featured in a bunch of my posts/videos, runs 35s and just goes to town on the trail. He is currently saving up to build the D30 as i have intention to. Another guy i know, Erich, has a 4banger on 35s with an hp 30. He says his HP 30 was one of the more important upgrades for his rig. He regularly wheels, wheels it hard and his Jeep spends a good amount of time in the rocks. I understand the bullet proof advantage of D60s, but are they truly needed for 35s? Will a built up HP 30 not be adequate?
I think you're over thinking it. Here's a friend of mine's YJ. He's on 36" TSL's. I forget if it's stroked or not. A built HP30 is pretty damn strong. The only downside is gearing and the unitized wheel bearings. They're cheap though.
(http://www.jeepaholics.com/support/files/bob91yj/20040426071451_IMG_0115.JPG)
(http://www.jeepaholics.com/support/files/bob91yj/20040425222352_IMG_0044.JPG)
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A built HP30 is pretty damn strong. The only downside is gearing and the unitized wheel bearings.
well, i would be at 4.56 gears, so not an issue for the carrier. My neighbor says he can get me some HP30s for under 100 bucks, i think a reinforced/built up 30 will handle the 35s.
I'm not looking to run ridiculous trails or turn my jeep into a trail hog
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well, i would be at 4.56 gears, so not an issue for the carrier. My neighbor says he can get me some HP30s for under 100 bucks, i think a reinforced/built up 30 will handle the 35s.
I'm not looking to run ridiculous trails or turn my jeep into a trail hog
If you can do one for next to nothing then I'd go that route. It should be fine as long as you're not pounding on it and even then... I thought you were going to stick with 33's?
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I thought you were going to stick with 33's?
I would love to, and will stay at 33s as long as my RPMs are not pushed up given the 4.56 gears. If I do have high RPMs, I'll size up to 35s to counter. I feel though, that I may want to swap in a built up HP 30 even if I stay at 33s.
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I would love to, and will stay at 33s as long as my RPMs are not pushed up given the 4.56 gears. If I do have high RPMs, I'll size up to 35s to counter. I feel though, that I may want to swap in a built up HP 30 even if I stay at 33s.
Why not drop down to 4.11's then. IIRC, the HPA YJ was running 4.56's with 35's. Stock axles are dirt cheap.
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Why not drop down to 4.11's then. IIRC, the HPA YJ was running 4.56's with 35's. Stock axles are dirt cheap.
I don't know, i just felt like if it was between regear or size up, just size up.
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for 35s D60 is overkill imo not to mention the lower hanging diff housing.
No they're not.... :whistle:
...and I have measurement comparisons on my rig build thread of where I was and what I ended up with when I went from 31's on stock axles to 35's on D60's front and rear...went up to 37's this past September.
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No they're not.... :whistle:
...and I have measurement comparisons on my rig build thread of where I was and what I ended up with when I went from 31's on stock axles to 35's on D60's front and rear...went up to 37's this past September.
are you saying that the housing is not hanging lower on the D60 compared to D30? doesnt' really add up, the ring diameter is larger so it needs a larger housing to accomodate it. I bet the housing is also thicker. I'm talking the same tires and not stock tires with D30 vs 37s with a D60
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Of course it hangs lower with the same tires, but why go to D60's if you were keeping the same tire size? I gained quite a bit of clearance going from 31's on a 3" lift to 35's on a 4" lifts hole switching to D60's. and I don't worry about my axles blowing up. :thumb:
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Of course it hangs lower with the same tires, but why go to D60's if you were keeping the same tire size?
well this started because i may actually need to increase to 35s as i'd rather do that than gear down. I am thinking an HP 30 will do fine on 35s.
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well this started because i may actually need to increase to 35s as i'd rather do that than gear down. I am thinking an HP 30 will do fine on 35s.
You most likely will be...and it is at least worth the risk to save the money. I would run the 35's and save up money for an axle upgrade later if you still need it.
My upgrade to D60's was more about bullet proofing my rig not just for larger tires, but I was originally planning on throwing an LS engine in there and was worried about my heavy foot.
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My upgrade to D60's was more about bullet proofing my rig not just for larger tires, but I was originally planning on throwing an LS engine in there and was worried about my heavy foot.
I thought it was to one up the Joneses? :wall:
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I thought it was to one up the Joneses? :wall:
That too....