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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jfrabat on July 26, 2007, 01:32:50 PM
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Hey, guys, as you mayhave seen in other posts, I just recently installed a RE 4" with the SYE and Woody shaft. As expected, the ride now is a bit stiffer (keep in mind my old springs were 13 years old!), and feels like a pickup truck more or less (so nothing TOO stiff, but stiffer than before).
Yesterday, while driving back from work, I saw some ditches next to the street, and decided to take a quick detour to test for flexing of the new spring, but I notice that there was not all that much flex. I know the springs are new, and that they will soften up after a while, but how much flex should I expect from these new springs? My understanding was that the RE lift is actually one of the more flexible 4" lift kits, so I was surprised to se very little flex...
Eventually, I plan to take my Jeep down to Panama (Central America, not FL) for offroad duties, and there, the trails are on the muddy side, so good traction is a must. I will try to stop by today as well and take some pictures to show you what I mean...
Felipe
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First thing, disconnect your front and rear trackbars. This makes a HUGE difference. Then you will want to get some swaybar disconnects. (You could just remove the swaybar too if you like the sway.) It should make a big difference. Also, you might want to loosen the shackles a bit. Most of the time the shackle bolts are tightened too much. As long as you have locking nuts you should not have to worry about them loosening up or falling off.
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Rear trackbar is gone; I am now considering an adjusteable front one (the ones you can "easily" take off). Sway bar was disconnected at the time... Still is, but I am going to reconnect it as soon as I receive the new bolts for the links (the tappered ones I kind of ruined while getting the stock links off to install the swaybar discos).
Felipe
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Honestly, I'd forget about the adjustable track bar. I don't think it's worth it. If you ever forget to loosen the collar on the trackbar, it will forever be loose. Not to mention since you have a lift, you will need the trackbar extension. That extension never stays tight. It will loosen up and start clunking as it rocks. I got fed up with mine and removed it. BTW, the front trackbar
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So I should just remove the front trackbar for offroading? I have read that keeping it off can cause the axles to move in relationship to the springs (U-Bolts come loose). If this is the case, I will probably keep the front trackbar for now, but remove it when I take my rig back to Panama for offroading use!
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All you need is your swaybar In the Front with disco's . The rest just add weight and kill Flex for that sport car tuner ridin Jeep :) Jeffy do you run the front sway bar? I do. I think I will remove it for a month and see if I miss it much.
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So I should just remove the front trackbar for offroading? I have read that keeping it off can cause the axles to move in relationship to the springs (U-Bolts come loose). If this is the case, I will probably keep the front trackbar for now, but remove it when I take my rig back to Panama for offroading use!
No your U-bolts will not loosen if the trackbar is removed. You'll get a bit more bumpsteer if you have it already and the steering won't be a razer sharp but it's still pretty quick and sensitive.
All you need is your swaybar In the Front with disco's . The rest just add weight and kill Flex for that sport car tuner ridin Jeep :) Jeffy do you run the front sway bar? I do. I think I will remove it for a month and see if I miss it much.
I have disconnects on my swaybar since the front is SOA. I have a lot of weight up hi and still like to corner somewhat aggressively. I get a lot more roll if I drive with it disconnected. I drove it without the swaybar for a long time too. If you drive slower, it shouldn't be a problem.
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Here's the picture I promised... I guess looking at it now it does not look all that bad, but what do you guys think?
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC02424.jpg)
Anyway, I currently have the swaybar discos undone, but the track bar is in place. I guess I will keep it until I am ready to go offroading with my rig (as in AFTER I have the lockers in place!).
Felipe
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Even with the swaybar disconnected the trackbar will prevent the axle from moving. Most likely the extension bracket will loosen or break.
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Looks good, but I see a problem with the angle of the front shackles. Almost looks as if the shackle bolts were tightened completely before the jeep's weight was back on the springs. This would account for the poor ride and poor flex.
I would loosen the shackle bolts quite a bit, and the bolts at the frame end of the springs, and flex that jeep out nicely. Then snug the bolts back up but not too tight.
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Bounty,
What is the right process for this? Losen the shackle bolts a bit, drive around the block, and then tighten them up again? By the way, according to the manuals I have, these bolts go really tight (100 ft/lbs), but I have read that it should not be so tight to let the shackles flex as well...
But now that you mention it, I do think I tightened the shackles before lowering the Jeep, so I'll try losening a little, driving it around the driveway, and retightening... If this is not the right process, please let me know!
Felipe
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Bounty,
What is the right process for this? Losen the shackle bolts a bit, drive around the block, and then tighten them up again? By the way, according to the manuals I have, these bolts go really tight (100 ft/lbs), but I have read that it should not be so tight to let the shackles flex as well...
But now that you mention it, I do think I tightened the shackles before lowering the Jeep, so I'll try losening a little, driving it around the driveway, and retightening... If this is not the right process, please let me know!
Felipe
Loosen them , jump on the bumper a few times and tighten them. 100l# is really tight. I think I run mine at 40# but some people run them even less. The only consideration is that you're running stock shackles and bolts which don't give you a lot of thread left after you tighten them. I forget if the nuts are locking or not, either. You'll have to recheck them after a few hundred miles to make sure they're still tight after the suspension settles.
I can see that the driverside shackle is \ because that tire is on a slight incline while the other one is more |. They should settle to a slight /.
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Loosen them , jump on the bumper a few times and tighten them. 100l# is really tight. I think I run mine at 40# but some people run them even less. The only consideration is that you're running stock shackles and bolts which don't give you a lot of thread left after you tighten them. I forget if the nuts are locking or not, either. You'll have to recheck them after a few hundred miles to make sure they're still tight after the suspension settles.
I can see that the driverside shackle is \ because that tire is on a slight incline while the other one is more |. They should settle to a slight /.
Thanks; I'll try it this way...
Felipe
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Would it be beneficial to tighten to where the bushing compresses, then loose to where the bushings is relaxed?
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I just torque my set to 12 Foot Pounds but I am using new Nylon lock nuts. Jeffy , Bounty what's your TQ level for the shackle bolts?
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Would it be beneficial to tighten to where the bushing compresses, then loose to where the bushings is relaxed?
Well one of the problems with the stock shackles is that they sorta have a cup where the bushings is. Stock shackles also tend to stretch out the bolt hole over time which isn't good. I think having them a little tight is better.
I just torque my set to 12 Foot Pounds but I am using new Nylon lock nuts. Jeffy , Bounty what's your TQ level for the shackle bolts?
Mine are around 30-40# I think preference. I do know people who go as low as 12ft-lbs though.
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Well one of the problems with the stock shackles is that they sorta have a cup where the bushings is. Stock shackles also tend to stretch out the bolt hole over time which isn't good. I think having them a little tight is better.
So if I am understanding right, you recommend I install aftermarket shackles?
Mine are around 30-40# I think preference. I do know people who go as low as 12ft-lbs though.
I just loosened mine (all 4 sets, both at the frame and the spring eye) and jumped on the bumper a bit. Then I retightened to 40ft/lbs. Now the front shackles are almost vertical. I'll keep you posted about any improvements.
Felipe
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Well one of the problems with the stock shackles is that they sorta have a cup where the bushings is. Stock shackles also tend to stretch out the bolt hole over time which isn't good. I think having them a little tight is better.
So if I am understanding right, you recommend I install aftermarket shackles?
Felipe
Eventually, yes, I think it would be a good idea but you don't have to do it right away. It's just something to think about and occasionally watch for. I currently went back to stock shackles on the rear of my Jeep. I noticed most of my stock shackles have wallowed out bolt holes. Also, you may want to grease your suspension bushings. This helps free them up and can help keep corrosion at bay.
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Also, you may want to grease your suspension bushings. This helps free them up and can help keep corrosion at bay.
This I did do... LIghtly greased, but greased none the less.
Felipe
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I have the same lift... yes it takes a while to break in. The RE Std. has some big arches so, it will limit flex.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i169/mighty4banger/Livingston/909_2.jpg)
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I also have the nylon lock nuts on mine and they are only 10 ft/lbs. Never had a problem. My RE 2.5" std flexes good, with the stock shackles the rear spring hits the frame in the rear under compression (which limits the flex). I've seen people post pictures with good flex of the bigger RE kits, so i guess just keep flexing it out until it breaks in.
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I have the same lift... yes it takes a while to break in. The RE Std. has some big arches so, it will limit flex.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i169/mighty4banger/Livingston/909_2.jpg)
I always like the proportions of your Jeep. YJ's look good with 35's. Makes me want to go back to stock flares.
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Thanks jeffy! :beers:
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In my case, I am thinking about new shackles.... Any recommendation? I dont want any lift from the shackles, by the way. And I prefer to stay away from the revolver or Z-bent shackles (have not read too many good things about these).
Felipe
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Go with a boomerang style... like the MORE or Curries. At full droop my rear spring bottom on the frame as well limiting travel. I have been tempted to do the same, but, my wallet is now empty.
Just
Empty
Every
Pocket
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Go with a boomerang style... like the MORE or Curries. At full droop my rear spring bottom on the frame as well limiting travel. I have been tempted to do the same, but, my wallet is now empty.
Just
Empty
Every
Pocket
Boomerang shackles are the way to go, especially in the back. The other option which adds lift is to relocate the rear shackle hanger below the frame, like on a CJ. This is equivalent to a 1-5" shackle lift without having to use a larger shackle.
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OK, so I found a better dirt pile to test the flexing of the RE 4" lift. I also lowered the torque of the shackles to 40 ft/lbs. Here's the result:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC02428.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC02427.jpg)
i still think the shackles are acting up, as you can see the one on the front passanger side is not compressing right (in my opinion, anyway!). What do you guys think?
Felipe
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I think it's VERY Green In FL :nod:
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OK, so I found a better dirt pile to test the flexing of the RE 4" lift. I also lowered the torque of the shackles to 40 ft/lbs. Here's the result:
i still think the shackles are acting up, as you can see the one on the front passanger side is not compressing right (in my opinion, anyway!). What do you guys think?
Felipe
It's not flexing because you still have the front trackbar on. The front passenger side is the worst since that's where teh track bar attaches to the axle.
Also, it's a good idea to rotate your swaybar up as high as possible and bungie it up.
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I agree with Jeffy. When I had a rear trackbar the side where the bar was attached (driver's side) did not flex as well as the other side. The problem is that it forces the springs to the side (not made to work that way, just up and down) making them bind, bad design for leaf springs in my opinion.
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So, if I remove the track bars, what is the trade with regards to on-road handling? I ask because I am using the Jeep as a daily driver and not offroading it for now; so I can just keep the track bar for now (along with the sway bar) and remove it when I take the rig back to Panama for trailing (as it will no longer be a daily driver then).
I can see a big difference in the flexing of the rear in the photo above (no track bar there), but I have read that not having the track bar can (1) cause more sway on corners (especially at higher highway speeds), and (2) cause the U-Bolt nuts to become loose... At this time, as I said, I am planning on leaving the track bar and installing the swaybar disconnects, but I do plan to remove the track bar when I take the rig back south (I may leave the sway bar, as the discos are easy to take out; if I have problems then taking out the discos, I will loose the complete sway bar at that time).
Opinions?
Felipe
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why beat yourself up. Test it. and if you don't like the track off when you are on road put it back on.
I bet you can's even tell its off unless you drive it a Daytona like Jeff Gordan. :)
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So, if I remove the track bars, what is the trade with regards to on-road handling? I ask because I am using the Jeep as a daily driver and not offroading it for now; so I can just keep the track bar for now (along with the sway bar) and remove it when I take the rig back to Panama for trailing (as it will no longer be a daily driver then).
I can see a big difference in the flexing of the rear in the photo above (no track bar there), but I have read that not having the track bar can (1) cause more sway on corners (especially at higher highway speeds), and (2) cause the U-Bolt nuts to become loose... At this time, as I said, I am planning on leaving the track bar and installing the swaybar disconnects, but I do plan to remove the track bar when I take the rig back south (I may leave the sway bar, as the discos are easy to take out; if I have problems then taking out the discos, I will loose the complete sway bar at that time).
Opinions?
Felipe
There will be more movement up front so the steering might feel a bit different. it won't be as sharp but you'll get used to it fast. The onlt other downside is bumpsteer but that will only really happen if you punch the brakes hard. Depending on how stiff the front springs are, you might not have that much bump steer. (Bumpsteer: because of the steering geometry, the Jeep will pull to one sice as the suspension compresses, or pull to the other side when it bounces back.)
Keep in mind CJ's do not have trackbars and have been on the road since '79. Removing the track bar will not cause the U-bolts to loosen. If they are properly tighten then there should be no problems. (this is the first I've ever heard of this) The trackbars do not control sway. They are there to limit the suspension movement. Since your leafs have a higher spring rate (read stiffer), I doubt you'll have any more lean then you would with the stock suspension.
I think I've mentioned this before, if you leave the trackbar on and try to flex the suspension, you will eventually break the trackbar extension bracket. Worst case you could crack the housing where the trackbar mounts to. The weakest link is that extension though.
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OK, I think I will try it without the track bar and see how it handles... I'll check for bumpsteer and such, and then decide.
Felipe