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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: GBJeep on March 30, 2009, 04:11:36 PM
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Hey Guys,
I have decided to jump in and paint my Jeep. It has a crappy Macco safety cone orange paint job currently. I am not looking to make it perfect, but I want it to look nice. I have limited experience in painting. I am doing all of the body work this weekend, and planning on painting next weekend.
My dillema is what type of paint job to do. I have read everything I can on the roll-on paint jobs and rattle can jobs. In your opinions what is better. I am looking to have a nice paint job that will take no longer than 3 days, or cost more than $200. The roll-on method looks like it can turn out nice, but people seem to have alot of issues with it. I have a garage and the outside temps should be in the 50's. It is also my DD.
In your guys' experience what is the best way to do this. I have limited funds, so that is why I am doing it myself. I am not against the hammered finish, I do need to see better picts of the finished product. My ultimate goal is to have a nice paint job with as few hurdles as I can.
Any and all help would be appreciated! I will be posting pics of the work as it gets done.
Thanks!!
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The roll-on method looks like it can turn out nice, but people seem to have alot of issues with it.
What issues? Links?
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I'd take the front clip off and paint it separately. If I was going to paint the Jeep, I'd consider using Hammerite Hammered finish. It's a bit textured but looks really cool. Not to mention Hammerite is stronger then regular paint and will hold up better. Also, the texture of the paint will hide any imperfections the body may have.
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Jesse James - www.rolledon.com has alot, and I read about 70 pages on the Mopar Forum about people trying it. Not that I dont think those people proly did something wrong along the way and that the runs and orange peel is most likely due to applying the paint to thick and fast, and not sanding well enough.
I am still thinking of that process.
Jeffy - the hammerite was my first idea, but I have eased away from that as I have not seen it first hand and not sure how it would look on a whole vehicle. Does the paint have a textured feel to it or is it just the look? Would you spray that on or roll it? If it has a textured feel to it also how do you sand and buff the paint?
Really there is not much metal to the jeep (duh) so maybe the textured would look pretty good. I am sure my body work will be slighty noticable.
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I actually did join that forum and I've seen the mistakes. I am just concerned with how it holds up.
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Jeffy - the hammerite was my first idea, but I have eased away from that as I have not seen it first hand and not sure how it would look on a whole vehicle. Does the paint have a textured feel to it or is it just the look? Would you spray that on or roll it? If it has a textured feel to it also how do you sand and buff the paint?
Really there is not much metal to the jeep (duh) so maybe the textured would look pretty good. I am sure my body work will be slighty noticable.
I've used Hammerite on axles and other hardware with good results. The main is lightly textured. That's what makes the Hammered finish. It looks like someone took a ball-peen hammer and textured it. The divots are what holds the darker color. You would probably do one or two coats and leave it. I don't think you really need to sand and spray and sand then sand some more. The texture hides any imperfections. This isn't a paint job where you're looking for a showroom finish. It's rugged and durable above all else.
The only problem with Hammerite is finding it. It's not the same as Rustolium Hammered finish as that does not have the glass beads that make it tough.
If you want a smoother finish I would use Hammerite smooth finish and then block sand it then spray and sand for a smooth glassy finish.
Here's a interior does in smooth; http://forum.ih8mud.com/paint-body/264589-using-hammerite-rust-cap-results-pic.html
(http://www.blindchickenracing.com/Other%20Fabrication/Stuff/nerfbars05.jpg)
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I don't have any pics of the finished product, but I used rattle can Dupli-Color Flat black to paint my hard top recently. Here's a quicky shot of how it was turning out. It's a bit dusty in this pic, but the finish is pretty nice for a flat black IMO
(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/JeepFreak14/Hard%20top%20painting/DSCF0166.jpg)
(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/JeepFreak14/Hard%20top%20painting/DSCF0165.jpg)
Not really 100% flat, just barely has any sheen. You could probably buy some in a gallon if you've got a sprayer and knock it out fairly quick.
I like the look of the Hammerite paint. But I don't know if I'd want my whole rig like that. When we used to run Outlaw go-karts my dad has his frame powdercoated with a similar coating, it looked SICK! I think it's great for smaller stuff
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I do like the way the hammered looks on that metal. I am just not sure if i want to the whole Jeep in it. Has anyone done both the rattle can spray job and the roll-on job? I would like to know if the spray will look as nice as the roll-on can. I know the roll-on can be a pain, but it can also look very nice. Then again if the spray is that much easier and can look pretty nice also, i would proly lean that way. I know a lot of it has to do with prepping but assuming that is done decent I wonder what will be the best route to go.
Anyway, I have some fiberglassing and welding to do this weekend then its on to paint.
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I do like the way the hammered looks on that metal. I am just not sure if i want to the whole Jeep in it. Has anyone done both the rattle can spray job and the roll-on job? I would like to know if the spray will look as nice as the roll-on can. I know the roll-on can be a pain, but it can also look very nice. Then again if the spray is that much easier and can look pretty nice also, i would proly lean that way. I know a lot of it has to do with prepping but assuming that is done decent I wonder what will be the best route to go.
Anyway, I have some fiberglassing and welding to do this weekend then its on to paint.
I imagine with rolling the paint on you'd have much less orange peel to deal with than spraying, but that probably has a lot to do with the sprayer being used, the paint, etc. You could sand in between each coat, but it sounds like you don't want to spend a whole lot of time on it. If you spend all of each of the 3 days on it, you can probably get a god result either way. I've considered trying the roll on method but haven't yet. I do want to try it eventually though
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Alright, so I got my hands on a compressor and gun (gravity feed non HVLP) to spray the Jeep. I have limited experience doing this, so any help would be appreciated.
I also just found out that my little rust spot showing above my diamond plate is actually a moderate rust hole about 2in by 2in. Should be fun.
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I rolled-on mine -- have some pictures on here somewhere -- a year or two back after I did the bodywork. I think I have photos on the site, rolledon.com too (Checked: http://www.rolledon.com/projects-f2/black-1994-jeep-yj-t30.htm (http://www.rolledon.com/projects-f2/black-1994-jeep-yj-t30.htm)) Seem to recall using a one part polyurethane that was thinned 50/50. It's certainly a doable if you have the place to work. And the results you end up with are decent. But, if you have the compressor and a place to do the job, I'd give that a go -- probably a faster process.
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For those of you who are wondering what happened...
After 4 full days worth, only 3 if I was aware that there is no other tape then 3M (never buy cheap tape!!), i have finally changed by jeep from safety cone orange to a gunmetal green metallic (there is no name for the paint, but that is what it looks like to me). I got my hands on a Binks model 7 sprayer and a 50gal compressor so I decieded to go bc/cc.
I will post before and after pics. It looks awesome! It is amazing what a fresh paint can do to your jeep. I bought only 2 quarts of paint and used it all. I would definatly buy more if there is a next time. I ended with 4 coats of base and 4 coats of clear. I was a little nervous of putting it on too thick, but found out that you really have to lay it on to get runs. Now it is 40 deg. where I am and the garage was heated to about 55. I did all of the work by myself, brother, and friends coaxed into it by free beer. I did find that having the right tools makes the job go a lot faster. With my limited experience using these tools I am really happy of the results.
I think it will be worth it. I spent about $400 total in all supplies, some tools, and beer of course. I am just glad to have a Jeep I can look at and be proud that I did the work on it. So that justifies my time spent.
One question is how long should I wait to wet sand, or if I should at all?
I will be putting back together tomorrow and hope to have pics of my "new" Jeep tomorrow!
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For those of you who are wondering what happened...
After 4 full days worth, only 3 if I was aware that there is no other tape then 3M (never buy cheap tape!!), i have finally changed by jeep from safety cone orange to a gunmetal green metallic (there is no name for the paint, but that is what it looks like to me). I got my hands on a Binks model 7 sprayer and a 50gal compressor so I decieded to go bc/cc.
I will post before and after pics. It looks awesome! It is amazing what a fresh paint can do to your jeep. I bought only 2 quarts of paint and used it all. I would definatly buy more if there is a next time. I ended with 4 coats of base and 4 coats of clear. I was a little nervous of putting it on too thick, but found out that you really have to lay it on to get runs. Now it is 40 deg. where I am and the garage was heated to about 55. I did all of the work by myself, brother, and friends coaxed into it by free beer. I did find that having the right tools makes the job go a lot faster. With my limited experience using these tools I am really happy of the results.
I think it will be worth it. I spent about $400 total in all supplies, some tools, and beer of course. I am just glad to have a Jeep I can look at and be proud that I did the work on it. So that justifies my time spent.
One question is how long should I wait to wet sand, or if I should at all?
I will be putting back together tomorrow and hope to have pics of my "new" Jeep tomorrow!
You can wetsand within a few days I would think, I know body shop guys who have. If you want to wetsand it's up to you, if you've got some orange peel you want to remove then go for it. A thorough buffing afterwards will remove the sanding scratches and leave it looking nice and glossy :hump:
If you need info on how to wetsand and//or use a high-speed polisher, lemme know... It's what I do :smokes:
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"You can wetsand within a few days I would think, I know body shop guys who have. If you want to wetsand it's up to you, if you've got some orange peel you want to remove then go for it. A thorough buffing afterwards will remove the sanding scratches and leave it looking nice and glossy
If you need info on how to wetsand and//or use a high-speed polisher, lemme know... It's what I do "
Tahoe YJ
Some info on wetsanding and buffing would be appreciated. I used 2000 grit 3M yesterday and the white turtle wax polishing compound with an orbital and it looks bad. Not all the orange peel is gone and some of the sanded spots are still showing. The surface just doesnt look that smooth yet and i am not getting much gloss. The orange peel isnt that bad but some dust settled on it while drying, and I want the glossy look.
How do you go about your wetsanding, what cutting and rubbing compounds do you use, and what type of pads should I have? I did pick up a variable speed rotary buffer. I used to buff and polish at a detail shop while in college, but that is 5-6 years ago and most the cars were older with oxidation. So I do have a little experience with the tools, but your expertice would be appreciated.
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"You can wetsand within a few days I would think, I know body shop guys who have. If you want to wetsand it's up to you, if you've got some orange peel you want to remove then go for it. A thorough buffing afterwards will remove the sanding scratches and leave it looking nice and glossy
If you need info on how to wetsand and//or use a high-speed polisher, lemme know... It's what I do "
Tahoe YJ
Some info on wetsanding and buffing would be appreciated. I used 2000 grit 3M yesterday and the white turtle wax polishing compound with an orbital and it looks bad. Not all the orange peel is gone and some of the sanded spots are still showing. The surface just doesnt look that smooth yet and i am not getting much gloss. The orange peel isnt that bad but some dust settled on it while drying, and I want the glossy look.
How do you go about your wetsanding, what cutting and rubbing compounds do you use, and what type of pads should I have? I did pick up a variable speed rotary buffer. I used to buff and polish at a detail shop while in college, but that is 5-6 years ago and most the cars were older with oxidation. So I do have a little experience with the tools, but your expertice would be appreciated.
Well you're off to a good start using 2000 grit, I've had lots of people tell me to use that or nothing coarser than 1500 grit. I did a friends black BMW hood with 2000 grit and it took a while, but the end result was worth the effort. Just work in the same direction all the way around the vehicle (or wherever you decide needs wetsanding) and don't use too much pressure. Go against the grain of your fingers (if that makes sense) as much as possible. If you don't, you'll have lines from your fingers that will be a PITA to remove. If you you don't feel comfortable sanding too much just do a small spot, buff it out, and see how it looks. That's pretty much what I did the first time I wetsanded a vehicle. After you've made some progress you can sort of tell when you've leveled off the orange peel as best as possible without burning through the clear (You're going to be buffing afterwards, so don't take off too much or you could easily go through the clear when compounding.) Again just work slow and don't be too afraid. If you're confident then you shouldn't have a problem.
If you've got some experience using a rotary, that's another great start. Because it will be IMPOSSIBLE to remove those sanding scratches without an abrasive product and heat (from the high speed rotary) to break the product down. A wool cutting pad and fairly abrasive product works well for removing sanding scratches, and on black don't be surprised if you've got to do 2+ full passes to remove the scratches. Run the machine around 1500-1700 RPM's and just keep it moving. Tape off your edges/molding/whatever to help avoid burning things and messing up your pad. You'll have some swirl marks left behind from compounding, no biggie. If you want them 100% gone, you'll need to do a 3-step polish or even more. By 3 steps, I mean Compounding (To remove sanding marks), a lightly abrasive polish to remove the deep holograms from the compound, and a finish polish to get that swirl-free, glossy look. This is where I see a lot of body shops screw up, they go straight from compounding to applying a glaze, so within a month the car is covered in swirls and the sanding scratches are evident again. Do each step thoroughly if you want a glossy, defect-free finish. And as you progress to each step you will see an improvement. The compounding might leave a light haze behind, which is where a lighter duty product/pad comes in. After that, the final polish. You can even slap on a hand glaze to hide any possible defects and just deepen the finish a bit.
After that, just wax it and you're good to go. As for wax, if you're going to use a generic auto parts store style wax, any of them will do. You can use other products though, such as Poorboys, P21S, Pinnacle, P&S, whatever. If you want some links to products/more advice I can point you in the right direction.
I kinda threw all this together for you really quickly as I'm about to head out for a bit, but feel free to ask if you need me to clarify something or need more info...
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If you want some links to products/more advice I can point you in the right direction.
Yes, please. I'm starting mine fairly soon.
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Yes, please. I'm starting mine fairly soon.
Well, I'll start off with what I use... Presta Products. Here's a link to their Ultra Cutting Creme Light,
http://www.malcopro.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=173&category_id=1171&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=608
Hands down the BEST compound I've used to date. Very little to no dusting while working with it, and it cuts very quickly and doesn't dry up/gunk up like other compounds. 2-3 passes should easily take out sanding scratches and more. Again you'd use a heavy cut wool pad with this to remove the scratches, as foam just won't cut it (no pun intended...). After 1-2 passes with it you can probably step down to a foam cutting pad with this product, the finish will start to become glossier and have less of a haze. A high powered Halogen light is your best friend while buffing, shine it on the paint to check your progress. Don't beat yourself up over the small defects, a Halogen will show things sunlight never will. At least with a dark color such as black. Oh, and you have no need to work this stuff at more than 1700 RPM's. It cuts very well around that speed. Also you don't need more than maybe 1-2 beads of polish on each panel to work with. About as thick as a pencil and maybe 10-12" long. But this can vary, and you'll find what works best for you as you're working your way around the Jeep.
After that, I'd step down to their 1500 polish
http://www.malcopro.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=174&category_id=1169&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=608
It does have a tendency to gunk up, but it all depends on how much product you're using and the pad. Like UCCL it works quickly and doesn't really dry out, and it has a nice smell to it I think :hump:
You'll need one pass for sure, 2 depending on how near-perfect you want the finish.
And finally, their Swirl Remover.
http://www.malcopro.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=175&category_id=1169&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=608
I have yet to find ANY finishing polish that will leave a dark colored finish 100% swirl-free after buffing. It's aggressive enough that you can use it with a light cutting pad to remove small defects but it still finishes off like butter. Works best around 12-1400 RPM's, and 1 pass should get the finish looking great. This stuff actually works even better when you use less product than normal, and mist the finish with some water or SILICONE FREE Quick Detailer spray, I stress the silicone free part because this product, as the rest of the Presta line, doesn't contain silicone/fillers, they're all 100% polish. They can be revived with water if they dry out and it makes the product spread even further than normal. I've used the Swirl Remover both with and without misting each panel before buffing, I get the same result either way but some like the latter more.
As for pads, I use a company called The Edge pads.
http://www.autogeek.net/theedgebuffing.html?gclid=CNfW9aqM8ZkCFRwpawodbk_FQw
They're a double-sided, quick connect pad system and they have TONS of different pads and they last a long time. Plus, they're sort of partnered with Presta (You can actually buy the Presta kit with the polishes and these pads), so the color of each pad corresponds with each level of polish. For instance, their yellow cutting pads go with the Ultra Cutting Creme Light, green light cut pads with 1500 polish, and blue finishing pads for Swirl Remover. Here's a list of what each color pad is for...
Black Wool- EXTREME cutting. This baby will cut through just about ANYTHING! It's s'posed to be used for gel coats and removing I believe 1000 grit and finer sanding scratches, You shouldn't need this aggrsssive of a pad though.
Yellow Foam & Wool- Medium cut pads. Never had experience with the yellow wool pad, but the foam one kicks ass. I LOVE this pad for damaged finishes. When used with Ultra cutting Creme Light it cuts incredibly quick and well. You could possibly use this pad after using the wool pad, but the next pad down (green) should work too though.
Green Wool & Foam- Light cutting pads. The Green wool works well for removing the sanding scratches, oxidation, and can even be used for light polishing, I just personally prefer foam for polishing over wool. The green foam pad works great for light compounding and polishing too of course, it's really a pretty versatile pad. I've used it along with SR for fa quick, one-step polishing on some customer cars.
Blue Foam and Wool- Again no use with the wool blue pad, but LOTS of use with the foam one. It's a very soft foam and is meant for final polishing.
Now, just because each pad color corresponds with a certain Presta Product doesn't mean you've got to use that combination, you can use more or less any product you want with each pad. But- this is how they perform their best.
I've used other products, but the Presta/Edge system is what I learned on and I support it 110%. I've tried other pads/prodcuts and although they work, I always come back to Presta. They have yet to let me down.
You can get the whole kit for under $150 I believe, and it comes with compound, 1500 polish, Swirl Remover, 3+ pads, the adapter for the pads, their "Fas Wax" (SUCKS imo... don't use it...), and IDK what else... Been a while since I bought my kit. Again these are the products I personally use and know how to work, which is why I'm recommending them. I know this system works and with proper technique, you'll get outstanding results.
You can check out other products too...
www.autogeek.net has TONS of prodcuts
www.pakshack.com is another
www.detailcity.com has lots of products
www.poorboysworld.com is an independent dude back east, he has some great waxes/sealants. I have yet to try his polishes though... But I've enever heard anything bad about them...
And for any other information you can read through, check out www.detailcity.org (Yes, org... the dot com one is the guy's store. dot org is the forum address...)
Lots more I could explain and go into detail about, so if you have any questions still feel free to post :smokes:
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Wow, lots of info. Kit is for a 7" buffer I take it? I'll look into that, $133 at their online store ain't bad.
I'm sure I'll have a ton of ?'s later. When I was a teenager I spent a summer in a body shop clay barring and buffing, but that was a long time ago and it was on Case tractor parts so it wasn't critical work either.
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Wow, lots of info. Kit is for a 7" buffer I take it? I'll look into that, $133 at their online store ain't bad.
I'm sure I'll have a ton of ?'s later. When I was a teenager I spent a summer in a body shop clay barring and buffing, but that was a long time ago and it was on Case tractor parts so it wasn't critical work either.
Go with the Hammerite and spend the extra time drinking. :smokes:
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Hammerite would be too difficult to remove. I plan on using the Jeep as a test before I start another project, want to see what kind of finish I can get.
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Wow, lots of info. Kit is for a 7" buffer I take it? I'll look into that, $133 at their online store ain't bad.
I'm sure I'll have a ton of ?'s later. When I was a teenager I spent a summer in a body shop clay barring and buffing, but that was a long time ago and it was on Case tractor parts so it wasn't critical work either.
Well at least you know what a clay bar is and how to use one! :smokes: Granted there's no use for one when working on a fresh finish, at least you know what they are. So many people don't, and don't realize how much of a difference it can make.
The kit is for a rotary buffer yes, any kind at that. As long as it's a variable speed, high speed rotary it'll work with it.
If you're using the Jeep as a test to see what kind of finish you can get, definitely take your time sanding and buffing. All the hard work will make it worthwhile in the end. Granted it's a Jeep and it'll more than likely get scratched, who cares! I plan on doing my Jeep someday and since it's white barely anything shows. And I don't encounter too much brush on the trails I run
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TahoeYJ - thanks for the info. I went to the paint shop where I bought my paint and had their "expert" look at my finish. He felt I may have been a bit light with the clear, but I ended up buying some 1500, a new wool pad, and Maguires Diamond Cut Compound 2.0 #85. I was kinda excited to see how it would turn out and so I did my tailgate last night. WOW! Huge difference. I wet sanded it down and buffed it out to a nice shine. The tailgate feels like glass and I have my shine. Now I only have to go over the whole Jeep tonight to get it that way.
If I tape some of my edges to not burn them, how do you go over that spot? With the tailgate there were a lot of edges to be careful for.
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TahoeYJ - thanks for the info. I went to the paint shop where I bought my paint and had their "expert" look at my finish. He felt I may have been a bit light with the clear, but I ended up buying some 1500, a new wool pad, and Maguires Diamond Cut Compound 2.0 #85. I was kinda excited to see how it would turn out and so I did my tailgate last night. WOW! Huge difference. I wet sanded it down and buffed it out to a nice shine. The tailgate feels like glass and I have my shine. Now I only have to go over the whole Jeep tonight to get it that way.
If I tape some of my edges to not burn them, how do you go over that spot? With the tailgate there were a lot of edges to be careful for.
Just tape them off the best you can, you only have to worry about it during the wetsanding process, as the edges are where the clear is the thinnest (According to what I've been told anyway...) But really- it's up to you if you want to tape off your edges or not. I did the first few times but I just do my best to stay clear from the when I do wetsand nowadays...
And yeah, it really does make a big difference! :smokes:
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Well it is finally done! I shot the clear a little light, but I noticed this after I returned the gun and took all the tape off and cleaned the garage. So after 3 wetsandings (I am sure there is not much clear left now) and using a compound, swirl remover, polish, and wax I think it looks pretty good for a first time.
Here is a before shot.
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww262/Neckberg/OrJeep.jpg)
Here are two afters.
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww262/Neckberg/GrJeep2.jpg)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww262/Neckberg/GrJeep.jpg)
In addition to the paint, i added some 31's, chrome rockers and hood catches. I also got new taillights, as i did the round LED's last year, I bought some new clear ones with red LED's that look awesome.
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Looks great! Kinda satisfying, isn't it?
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The new green looks great. Nice work! (Gotta admit though: your original orange looked kinda nice from a distance in the photo -- up close was probably a different story though)
I painted mine a while back. Main thing I learned: its good to have your own garage, covered area to do the job + a second, backup vehicle.
If you are an apartment/condo dweller in a city (like me) without your own area to do the work and -- at the time -- no backup ride and you are pressed for time (who isn't?), the difficulty level involved in doing the paint/body work yourself reasonably well seems to multiply. Just thinking about it makes me thirsty :beer: