Author Topic: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?  (Read 9421 times)

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Offline sharpxmen

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2011, 09:46:40 PM »
i agree that gap doesnt affect afr dirrectly,  but everythig fuel related will in the long run,  and yes too big a gap is more likely to misfire if the spark sint strong enough to bridge the gap.  he sounded like he was running to rich and a gauge is only real way to know


i was replying to his post - should have included a quote
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
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quicksand

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2011, 01:13:34 AM »
Well maybe I thought wrong, but I thought that the computer learns the increase in air intake and then makes the adjustments in the right amount of fuel ratio. So is it not the air/fuel ratio combusted in the cylinder chamber. There for a good hot spark is needed to ignite that air/fuel in the chamber in order to explode the whole mixture, utilizing every bit of fuel, and making sure its all burned up. Thats why I was thinking of gapping just a little more. Thinking that the Little bit of fummy smell was fuel or left over gasses not being fully ignitied and there for wasted and coming out the exhaust pipe. Maybe I got it all wrong. either way I am going to try gapping a bit more. Remember my accel coil puts out 42,000 volts. I do run NGK v groove they have been good to me over the years.

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2011, 08:08:39 AM »
Well maybe I thought wrong, but I thought that the computer learns the increase in air intake and then makes the adjustments in the right amount of fuel ratio. So is it not the air/fuel ratio combusted in the cylinder chamber. There for a good hot spark is needed to ignite that air/fuel in the chamber in order to explode the whole mixture, utilizing every bit of fuel, and making sure its all burned up. Thats why I was thinking of gapping just a little more. Thinking that the Little bit of fummy smell was fuel or left over gasses not being fully ignitied and there for wasted and coming out the exhaust pipe. Maybe I got it all wrong. either way I am going to try gapping a bit more. Remember my accel coil puts out 42,000 volts. I do run NGK v groove they have been good to me over the years.
i'm not saying don't gap it more, i'm saying that you don't control the mixture by gapping your spark plug, so if you want 12AFR you won't be reducing the gap or the other way around - if your optimal gap is 40 (just an example, i'm not saying that is in your case) then make it 40 regardless of what your AFR is or you want it to be.

the mixture doesn't explode btw (or shouldn't explode) when it does you get knocking, the mixture burns and that's why you need spark advance (before piston TDC) to give it time to burn completely, higher rpm requires more spark advance as the piston cycle time is reduced and the mixture will still burn in the same amount of time (controlled burn that is and not instantaneous as in an explosion)

what your computer learns is the fuel trims in closed loop, if you go with larger intake then you get more air and the computer (PCM) will compensate with more fuel based on the O2 feedback - it will always target 14.7 AFR so it will not be too rich. In open loop (usually WOT and/or under acceleration) you will not be richer than before with a larger intake and better flow but if there is a difference and you reach a limit it will be leaner, in this case (open loop) the 'puter uses a pre-loaded fuel map (table) based on operating parameters and it does not use your narrowband O2 sensor feedback. If your mixture is richer then you have too much fuel somehow, that can be a choked intake or larger injectors or higher fuel pressure. If you get unusual exhaust fumes it can be rich mixture, incomplete burn or burning oil.

In open loop at WOT where you'd be making top HP the computer uses your MAP reading and the rpm to calculate the amount of oxygen that is cycled thru a piston, the way you could see if there is a "choke" in the intake would be to take a reading of your map sensor output with the engine stopped and the key in "run" position (it would be basically reading the atmospheric pressure), then to a test on the road at WOT  and take another reading - if they are the same then your intake has good flow, if the latter is lower (voltage that is) then your intake has some flow issues.

now, what your computer cannot read is the volummetric efficiency (VE) of your engine, what that means is that usually at wot and at high rpm the amount of air taken in the cylinder at the end of the piston intake stroke is less compared to the amount of air that would be in that cylinder with the engine stopped, so if out of the factory it is 85% VE at WOT and 5000rpm and you make a bunch of changes to your intake to increase the flow and the new VE is 90% your PCM will not know about it and will deliver the same amount of fuel as before - this is all in "open loop", in closed loop the mixture will be compensated by the PCM based on O2 feedback like i mentioned before.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

quicksand

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2011, 02:08:13 PM »
I know that, thats what I said, Just kidding. Well spoken and well writen, makes sinse, thanks for for input and knowlegde. Yeah I probably just gonna gap a little bit bigger and find that sweet spot, Thanks a bunch.

quicksand

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2011, 08:26:28 PM »
Will last nite I did regap my NGKs just a little bigger. They were set at .040 and just bumped up to .042. Ok very nice, it does not sound like much but again another difference I can feel. Smoother Idle, smoother crawl speed, Still good instance response off the line. Also still climbing quick to high speeds. I did top off the tank to check for any mileage changes and so far so good. I have not traveled far enough yet only 26 miles and the needle has barely moved, it is still pass the full mark. So hoping I have a decent mileage increase. But WoW she feels so much smoother. So far no misfires. It even got rid of most all of the bucking I used to get when it was cold at first take off in the morning. It does seem like I lost a little torque from 65 MPH to 75 but she still gets up to speed, but maybe its just smoother. I will continue test driving at this .042 gap. She feels good as if I gained some Horse or two. I just might be utilizing every little bit thats in there. O yes I am planing on upgrading to magnacor wires just to make sure all is at full fire/spark from the 42,000 volt coil. So all this time my coil was not beening used to full potential. Huh ?

Nicks92jeeper

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2011, 02:43:13 AM »
So having a larger gap on the plugs will help? Is there more of a gain with mods, without or doesn't matter? What would be the ideal gap or does that vary?

YJmechanic

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2011, 08:14:48 AM »
all varies depending on setup.  if you can support a big spark then it will benefit,  if you cant then your just gonna misfre,  all depends on what you got and how you set it up

quicksand

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2011, 02:00:08 PM »
I forget what the factory coil puts out, I do know that in comparison a MSD coil for the TJ puts out 35,000 volts and my current accel coil puts out 42,000 volt. Of couse to support that spark for the very least you will need 8mm wires. I plan to swap to magnacor wires they are 10mm and have read good reviews on the materials used on them. Such as a thick special insulation to help prevent heat build up and hot spots along with there ability to carry a strong current, also say that dont carry any noise to radio and such, uh what do they call that noise supression or something like that. Man gotta save a few more pennys. Maybe for christmas?

Nicks92jeeper

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2011, 01:51:31 AM »
The MSD coil for the YJ is advertised at 40,000 volts and the accel is at 42,000. I only know this because I obsessed about both for about a month before I bought the MSD. I found better reviews for that one but kinda wish I had bought the accel.

quicksand

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2011, 02:04:10 AM »
The numbers I got were for a TJ from summit racing. I guess its different for the YJ. 40,000 volts still sounds good and plenty to me. I not sure if I mentioned before but I will like to get a set of magnacor 8.5mm wires, I have heard good things about this wires. I just wanna make sure I squeezing out and getting every bit of juice I can get. As far as volts/ strong spark to the plugs.

Offline Jeffy

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2011, 01:19:08 PM »
Magnacor?  They haven't had that good of reviews.  More of a tuner fanboy thing from what I've seen.  You never hear od them outside import/tuner communities.  I've heard their warranty sucks as well.
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quicksand

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2011, 02:52:23 PM »
Really WoW never heard that, thanks for your input, in your opinion what wires would you recommend. I currently run 8mm accel wires. O yeah what do you know about Live Wires?

Offline Jeffy

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2011, 03:11:29 PM »
Really WoW never heard that, thanks for your input, in your opinion what wires would you recommend. I currently run 8mm accel wires. O yeah what do you know about Live Wires?
PD is fairly well known in the Muscle Car and 4x4 community for their HEI Distributor conversion.  I've talked to Steve the owner through emails a few times.

I R&D the kit for the 2.5L which eventually went to market.  I still run the complete PD kit and chose it over a MSD/Jacobs setup I used to own.
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"If the motor car were invented today, there is absolutely no way that any government in the world would let normal members of the public drive one."

quicksand

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2011, 03:42:45 PM »
Well thanks for that info I just might start looking that way for a set of wires. Do you also run a bigger gap on your plugs? and if you do what is working for you?

Offline dwtaylorpdx

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Re: ELECTRIC FAN or NOT ?
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2011, 03:51:57 PM »
Taylor Vertex wires are very very good quality, they are common on magneto fired sprint and drag cars.

Our Sprint has 112,000 volts and Its a very high current system. the wires are 15MM.

Magnecore wires are a similar wire, but I cant make the extra dollars work out. The taylors survive in close contact with headers well.

Dave

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