Topic: Deciding to make the "Big Leap"

[Tr00b]

Ok I have been doing quite a bit of reading on this site and have done even more reading on other sites. Assume I'm well read, assume i've done some work and know my way around a shop and my Jeep, but I've never "built" a Jeep and and only cracked my first axle open a couple weeks ago. So things like "why shouldn't you just regear a stock D35" and "when you need a SYE" maybe haven't sunk in quite yet. I am 26, live on a farm alone and have a fulltime job about 35 miles away. I heat my home with wood and help my parents cut wood to heat their home, too.

Here are the basics:

My Jeep 1997 TJ SE as it is, is OK. I actually don't mind the 4cyl engine after getting it running right. The 4.10's and cooper STT 31's are fine...A little bit of a dog on the highway, even moreso on the highway with a loaded trailer! I have what amounts to one of those nicer 2" lifted spring kits (NOT the BB) installed by the PO decades ago, shocks replaced with some JK Rubicon "Red" shocks, so it rides very firm and controlled and I love it (I'd say to buy one of these kits today would cost $900 from OME or someone like that). I regularly pull trailers in the 2000# range in and out of the timber loaded with firewood. Its ok unless in foot deep snow, ice or deep mud that hangs the trailer up... Its been my DD for years and I have burned though 4 seperate Ford pickups that crapped out on me. All the while, the Jeep has pulled them out, replaced them as they sat in smoking heaps etc. My latest one is a Ford Ranger 2.5 2wd that I gave up on, after putting a clutch, a trans, head gasket, spring hangers... Etc... I have an interested party that wants to give me $2500 for it and that goes a long way towards Jeep parts!

The intention here is:

1. Replace a 1/2 ton pickup for farm duty (with some authority, rather than just as a last resort)
2. Make an efficient, liveable daily driver that will go about anywhere.
3. Minimal downtime because it will be my only vehicle.
4. Keywords: COST EFFECTIVE. I have an old falling down house, student loans and a mortgage.

Here are some of the problems I still have to work out.

1. Northern Illinois Rust:
   One of the sheetmetal channels the body mount mounts to was "indented" from hitting something years ago and that cracked the paint. Its all rusted out on that one body mount. This looks like a b**** to fix.
   The passenger side fender is really rusted above the fender flare. It looks like hell. I haven't been able to find a teal replacement.
   I have some concerns about the frame. Its full of big old rust scales... No where near the YJ frames I've seen but...
   The bottoms of the half doors and the rear door, are rusted too of course.
2. Brakes... It has the OEM brakes and wheel bearings/hubs I believe. They still work fine at 125k but they are due replacement. If I'm going to do axle swaps or etc, haven't wanted to dump money into that until we know whats going on.
3. Frontend craziness:
   When driving in snow or slush, The jeep becomes difficult to control. It seems like the steering wheel gets a mind of its own. Front tire wear seems abnormally high. I have gotten suggestions anywhere from the tires, to the toe in, to the radius arm bushings, to bent axle tubes, to hanging up brakes. A friend suggested replacing the front radius arms with Currie Johnny joints.

Here are some mods I have been scoping out:

1. Keep the 31's. Regear to 4.88, Ford Exploder 8.8 with Limited Slip. Front Aussie locker and quality unit bearings. All synthetic fluids in the diffs, trans transfercase. I have a good cheap mechanic ASE Certified for differential repair that lets me help, and a friend with a welding shop and jeep experience.
2. Black Magic brakes all around (full kit with calipers) new rear brake line and all new hoses.
3. Taking a shot at retrofitting a YJ or CJ hardtop onto my TJ.
4. Hard half doors w/sliders
5. Having a body shop Rhino-line (or whatever other brand etc) the bottom 1/2 and interior of my my jeep and fix the rust at the same time.
6. Misch's Big Boy Brackets.
7. Do I need a SYE, currie Johnny Joint Arms etc? It doesn't need them now (or at least, as far as I can tell)

Just want some thoughts from other 4cyl guys. AS IT IS, this Jeep does everything I need it to do. All I would be doing is making it into something I could enjoy more and get another 5 or so years of good use out of it and never go wanting for a pickup.

[sharpxmen]

if you keep the 31s and  by the sounds of it you don't do hard wheeling leave the axles as they are and fix it if it breaks, you might be surprised how many miles you get out of the D35 if it's maintained properly and does not see rock crawling or jumps. you can regear to 4.56 or 4.88 but if not done properly that's where you'll have problems. if i were you i would rather get an Eaton e-locker for the front rather than the detroit.

tire wear - you most likely need an alignment, you can do it yourself, suspend the front axle on jackstands and spin the wheels, keep a chalk in touch with the tire so it creates a mark somewhere 1/2 way on the tread (you can also create a mark in the middle of the chalk line with a sharp object like a screwdriver to be more precise), do the same on the other side. Measure the distance in front and behind the axle between chalk marks and it should be the same. Don't measure to the edge of the tires as they are never perfect for this size and doesn't account for any wobbling rims.

breaks - unless you go to hydro booster ro WJ knuckles the only thing you can do is to look for better pads and shoes. I don't know what black magic breaks are but if it's just some aftermarket same size replacement i'd say save your money and just buy new oem replacement rotors (if needed) and good pads.

an SYE is nice to have but with 2'' of lift you don't need it, just make sure your pinion and slip yoke are aligned, you might need to reposition (rotate) the rear axle so the pinion yoke axis is parallel with the slip yoke axis.

i wouldn't rhino the exterior, but that's just a matter of personal preference i guess.

there are a lot of things you can do though, this is my opinion based on what you said the vehicle is used for and far from making it bulletproof.

[Jeffy]

Here are some of the problems I still have to work out.

1. Northern Illinois Rust:
   One of the sheetmetal channels the body mount mounts to was "indented" from hitting something years ago and that cracked the paint. Its all rusted out on that one body mount. This looks like a b**** to fix.
   The passenger side fender is really rusted above the fender flare. It looks like hell. I haven't been able to find a teal replacement.
   I have some concerns about the frame. Its full of big old rust scales... No where near the YJ frames I've seen but...
   The bottoms of the half doors and the rear door, are rusted too of course.
2. Brakes... It has the OEM brakes and wheel bearings/hubs I believe. They still work fine at 125k but they are due replacement. If I'm going to do axle swaps or etc, haven't wanted to dump money into that until we know whats going on.
3. Frontend craziness:
   When driving in snow or slush, The jeep becomes difficult to control. It seems like the steering wheel gets a mind of its own. Front tire wear seems abnormally high. I have gotten suggestions anywhere from the tires, to the toe in, to the radius arm bushings, to bent axle tubes, to hanging up brakes. A friend suggested replacing the front radius arms with Currie Johnny joints.

Here are some mods I have been scoping out:

1. Keep the 31's. Regear to 4.88, Ford Exploder 8.8 with Limited Slip. Front Aussie locker and quality unit bearings. All synthetic fluids in the diffs, trans transfercase. I have a good cheap mechanic ASE Certified for differential repair that lets me help, and a friend with a welding shop and jeep experience.
2. Black Magic brakes all around (full kit with calipers) new rear brake line and all new hoses.
3. Taking a shot at retrofitting a YJ or CJ hardtop onto my TJ.
4. Hard half doors w/sliders
5. Having a body shop Rhino-line (or whatever other brand etc) the bottom 1/2 and interior of my my jeep and fix the rust at the same time.
6. Misch's Big Boy Brackets.
7. Do I need a SYE, currie Johnny Joint Arms etc? It doesn't need them now (or at least, as far as I can tell)

Just want some thoughts from other 4cyl guys. AS IT IS, this Jeep does everything I need it to do. All I would be doing is making it into something I could enjoy more and get another 5 or so years of good use out of it and never go wanting for a pickup.

If you're just going to stick with 31's then I see no reason to do an axle swap.

I'd make sure the rust issue with the frame is in check.  Run a wire wheel on the frame then repaint it if you have to.  If the frame is bad then there's no point in fixing everything else.

Unless the brakes are locked up I don't see any reason to replace them either.  Just replace the pads, shoes, disc's and drums.  Should be cheap.  Rebuilt calipers are $20 if you have to replace them.

A YJ/CJ hardtop will not work on a TJ.  Don't even bother.  Just get a TJ top and be done with it.  What are "Hard half doors w/sliders"?  You mean those drop in fiberglass door uppers?  I'd pass.  Honestly, you'd be better off with OEM full doors.  Sliding windows suck.

Steering.  Hopefully the trackbar was relocated when the lift was install.  Also, hopefully the steering was aligned when it was lifted.  I'd start there.   Check the bushings as well.

2" isn't really enough to cause too many issues with the drivetrain so you probably don't need a SYE unless you really want one.  And unless you're wheeling it, there is probably no reason to swap out the control arms.

[dwtaylorpdx]

Soda blasting is the best way to do small rust abatement, find a local service and have them blast the rust spots, then a coat of POR will stabilize the areas. (Por can be used as a patch material as well if you add a bit of fiberglass cloth or screen.) Its pretty easy to do,, and cost is pretty low, Probably a hundred bucks if you have every thing ready and accessible as possible for the blaster guy.

Dave

[Tr00b]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies.

I guess what I am gathering from your responses is, if you aren't doing anything extreme, you don't need any extreme modifications. Besides the regear and the locker, its all routine maintenance or cosmetic stuff that I've simply put off. Perhaps my time/money would be better spent on  fixing those items first instead of going all nuts on expensive stuff.

Sharpxmen, lots of good stuff, thanks for your assessment of the 35 rear. If the jeep has had no drivetrain problems for 10 years with the same lift, should I still worry and check the pinion axis?

Jeffy, appreciate the opinions. I get dumb ideas to try to spend money to save money, if you know what I mean...

This track bar relocation thing... How would i know if mine was relocated? What constitutes a worn out radius arm bushing?

Dwta...

Is POR like, POR-15? And are you talking about the frame or the body as well? As far as I was aware, POR15 was pretty sensitive stuff and you really couldn't mess with the mixture too much.

All...

If this were your jeep what would you do to it? You personally, as you if you were me. Would you get it in good shape and just drive it as is? Or go nuts?

[Jeffy]

Check all the bushings to see if they look intact.  They shouldn't have cracks or tears in them.  They shoouldn't be deformed either.  They also shouldn't make a thunk noise if shaken.

The trackbar would have an extra hole drilled into the lower mount so it would look like it's been shifted over to the driver side a bit.  Otherwise the whole axle will probably be pulled to the driver side an inch.

POR as in POR-15.  Although I'm a fan of Hammerite since it comes in spray cans.

If you're not having issues taking it where you plan on going then I really wouldn't do anything else.  Carry tools and maybe add a winch.  I wouldn't even do lockers or gears just to keep it all simple and not make it drive any worse onroad.  If you're worried about the D35, get a spare set of axles.  If you leave it open though, you shouldn't have to worry about breaking shafts.  Then maybe do a TeraFlex disc brake conversion for the rear if you want.  I use Hawk pads up front and like them a lot.

[sharpxmen]

Sharpxmen, lots of good stuff, thanks for your assessment of the 35 rear. If the jeep has had no drivetrain problems for 10 years with the same lift, should I still worry and check the pinion axis?

if you don't get vibrations i wouldn't worry too much

[dwtaylorpdx]

Yep, POR/POR-15.

I've always used the black and brushed it on, its very self leveling. Follow the instructions and
dont open the can ,,, Use a self drilling tapping screw to put a pour hole int he top edge on the side.
That way you can pour a dab out, use it and not worry about gluing the can lid on.
(Even a tiny drop  on the lid will permanently glue the lid on....)

I paint over it if needed with the correct color auto pain. Or the Hammerite like Jeff recommended.
The POR has always given me the best luck with adhesion to bare/rusty metal.
The hammerite is great for the tough cosmetic job, I use it on my bumpers so I can touch it up quick.

I'm stuck in a similar position as you, my YJ has > 200 K on it... I just rolled it on its side
last fall in the snow and fubar'd the side up. NOw what? I'm still working it out, at this point
I'm looking at body armor to cover the sides and just hide the crease I put in it.
The hardtop got cracked and busted the right side window.  It may be cheaper to buy
another jeep and swap my good parts over than fix this one...
And I can come out with a much lower mileage rig... But it would have to be a 6 cyl.
Or one someone already swapped something into.

BTW the body on a YJ around the mounts is a pain to weld, they are galvanized so you
have to sand/grind to raw metal before welding.


Dave

[sharpxmen]

Yep, POR/POR-15.

I've always used the black and brushed it on, its very self leveling. Follow the instructions and
dont open the can ,,, Use a self drilling tapping screw to put a pour hole int he top edge on the side.
That way you can pour a dab out, use it and not worry about gluing the can lid on.
(Even a tiny drop  on the lid will permanently glue the lid on....)

only problem is that you need to stir it, it deposits on the bottom and shaking the container won't do it, you'll need a stir stick (metal 'cause wood will harden it due to moisture) and really work it. maybe use the drill trick if you can't remove the lid any longer although i didn't have an issue, i just use a cloth and a screwdriver to clean the lip real well and it opened with no issues next time. With one of them i didn't care as it was really low and left POR in there, you can still open it but the container and lid are no longer usable (will bend when trying to unglue the lid).

[stan98tj]

I ran 31 MTs on my D35 up until very recently. I daily drove the jeep and wheeled it on the weekends. I was always careful as to where i placed my tires and how i approached obstacles etc, and never had a problem with the rear end. I upgraded to 33" Toyo MTs which are kind of heavy for a 33 and still daily drove the jeep and still was careful when I wheeled...again, no problems.  After a while though, I started thinking about that rear end. With 31s and an auto 4banger I knew I wasn't pushing enough power to accidentally break it...though I figured I could if i wanted to. But with the 33s, I figured the threat was a bit more real. A good friend of mine with a 6cyl has blown through 4 dana35s, 2 accidentally (one was on the road) and 2 through reckless behavior, he swapped out for a dana44 and hasn't looked back. Rather than wait for it to fail me, I swapped out for an 8.8. 
Details are in my build log.

Now, your situation:
Rust: POR-15, marine grade rust treatment etc, works great. Got a buddy who ordered POR15 and is pretty happy with it. Another friend of mine treated his undercarriage with a liner called ONYX (I think) and is also quite happy. The ONYX was done at a shop on Long Island, starts off with a chemical that seeks out and breaks down rust and finishes with a tough, rubbery coat. The only draw back is cleaning after a muddy trail run, the gritty rubber sorta holds on to a thin layer of mud/dirt and won't come off unless you really blast it with a power washer.

Control Arms: If you're going to do control arms, do them right. I went with swivel joints (also known as Johnny Joints) on both ends of the front upper and lower control arms. These help remedy the stresses involved with flexing/articulating the axle when off road. If you get JJs, do them on both sides, one side only doesn't really remedy the problem as the strain will still be on the frame or axle side. Cheaper kits that offer control arms will sometimes advertise use of the JJ or swivel joint and if you look at a pic of the kit, you will notice the joint only on one side of the arm. Currie and Clayton both make excellent control arms. I chose IronMan Fab 4x4 namely because it's a small shop out in NC (I like to help the small business guy) and I know a few ppl who run his arms and would bet their life you couldn't snap it...and IF you do, Andy at IronMan will back his product up no matter what. Also, his arms were adjustable, which I liked since the arm will adapt to whatever, lift height or axle you put in. My rear arms are also IronMan but no JJs on  those, partially because i didnt have the $$ and partially because my rear doesn't flex as much as the front.  There is a great thread on JeepForum i read while i was shopping for control arms that talks about the use of johnny joints on propper arms and cheaper kits not providing them on both ends.

Axle/SYE: 31s, as I mentioned before, are fine with a D35. Be careful of how you wheel and be careful out on the road. If she's a 5spd know that you CAN blow that rear if you try prob easier than someone with an auto, but I still think you would have to really be abusing it with just 31s. Now, if you EVER feel like going up to 33s, then I would take a serious look at that rear end and start thinking about a swap. IF you still want to swap out, you can go the easy way and purchase an 8.8 already set up for you with posi or locker and disk brakes for about $1600-1800 free shipping from a company called East Coast Gear Supply out in NC.
OR, if you know your way around a few hand tools and can weld, or know someone who can, you can do what East Coast Gear Supply does, and buy an 8.8 from a junkyard for about $120-200 (stick with 95-99 explorers for disk brakes) with posi or open (depends on what they have) then purchase the bracket set from ECGS and gears and set it up for about $800 (~$200 high end for 8.8, $220 for gears, $240 for Bracket kit and then odds and ends such as the flange adapter, brakes if you need them, master axle overhaul kit with new seals etc). Or you can truss the 8.8 with the kit from IronRock offroad, which would probably be a bit easier than going through the multiple angle measurements involved with welding the bracket kit. If you plan on going up over 2.5" to cure the driveline vibes, SYE is your ticket and while you're at it, tummy tuck and gain the clearance under the jeep.
Top off the 8.8 with a $60 diff cover from SOLID Axle Ind and call it good.

[JohnnyO]

Get a laser 4 wheel alignment at a shop.
Quality A/T or M/T tires, it looks like you're good there.
I wouldn't bother changing axles, the 4 banger and 31's are unlikely to break them.  I would put a Powertrax No-Slip locker in the rear, they are pretty smooth for street use, and a Detroit True Trac limited-slip in the front.  Steering will be better and less likely to break an axle shaft than if you have a front locker.  Less expensive than an E-Locker or ARB.  Or put a Powertrax in the front too, just be careful in snow or when turning in mud because it will want to go straight for a while before it turns.

[Tr00b]

Again, lots of great advice.

I wish I could spend more money safely. But until I get from underneath the student loans, i think its best to play it safe. Get out from under those, i can ALMOST finance this: 44 front, 8.8 rear, full selectable lock in both axles with 5.13 gears, 4" Currie lift kit and some craigslist 33's. IN ONE YEAR! $500 a month is murder.

What I'd love to have is a vehicle I won't hesitate to drive anywhere (like, I'd love to go to TX to visit a college friend), that if I need it to can work hard. If I go much crazier than 31" tires fuel mileage takes a big hit as tire weights increase. The current lift looks ok with the 31's. It rides great. THis winter I was getting 11mpg, and due to the front end, I didn't even really drive it much. Its gotten better now (got the motor running right), but yes... Laser alignment, rebushing and a brake freshening (it gets scarier when towing...) I think is going to help quite a bit. Instead of lockers, a 8500 off brand winch perhaps. So maybe spend $1000 instead of $3500.

I guess I haven't gotten much convincing to spend big ticket money. Stan, I love your build, you read my mind with what I originally wanted to do, and wish I was doing that. But at this point I don't need it.

I'll take some pics of the problem areas on the body...  See if there is anything you would have professionally done.

[Jeffy]

I'd do a Warn VR8000 winch instead of lockers.  Then invest in tools and recover gear.  Also sway-bar disconnects would be a really good investment.  KISS.  You don't need a lot of money to have fun.

[Tr00b]

Why a Warn? I can get one of these upstart winches (like the Enco, which won some offroad magazine's winch test) for ~300 less. 700 seems like too much to spend for something I'll rarely use.

Is it worth going to polyurethane bushings for the front end? Or plain old rubber-for-now? When replacing the bushings, do you go nuts and do them all, or just the ones that look damaged?

[sharpxmen]

i bought a badlands winch from H/F for $299 (12,000lbs) with a 25% off cupon, metal planetary gears and drum brake