Topic: split second ftc-1

[sharpxmen]

that explains it

you do the mapping in open loop to start with. Once you add the enricher you do it for closed loop. did you get the colder spark plugs?

[moparstroup]

yes colder by 2 the ones you recomended. i detonated once while running poorly with left over 87 octane, put premium in it and hasnt detonated since. dont run it much because it runs so bad. do you have the same intake i have? the injector rail, it seems to be attached in such a way that the entire intake would need removed in order to change injectors.

[sharpxmen]

yes colder by 2 the ones you recomended. i detonated once while running poorly with left over 87 octane, put premium in it and hasnt detonated since. dont run it much because it runs so bad. do you have the same intake i have? the injector rail, it seems to be attached in such a way that the entire intake would need removed in order to change injectors.

i have the stock intake bored out to 64mm, mine was not a bolt-on, all parts are custom made except for the supercharger core. i am using a TJ fuel rail with a dampener on it but basically the same as the stock one otherwise.

did you relocate the air temp sensor (or where is it located on this kit)? should be before the supercharger or at the inlet right below the t/b at least.

[moparstroup]

yes i did relocate it.

[moparstroup]

for open loop am i only adjusting at idle on first start or do i force it to run in open loop by disconecting narrow band o2. i read a good article on tuning with split second and basically they said map open loop idle,then closed loop, then wot open loop last. they didnt make it clear on how to map open loop though. on its own it wouldnt stay in open loop long. could you explain how to map open loop. the other thing is the artical basically read like mapping the closed loop part was just getting the adaptives as close to 0 as possible because the computer is gonna lean it out to where it wants to be anyway. i dont see what the ftc accomplishes then for keeping things rich enough. they recomended about 12:1 on open loop. do you agree? my drb scan tool did not pan out so i am gonna order a scan tool that works through the laptop, obd br-3 for about 100.00 seems like it will work out. im telling you a buch of stuff so if you see something out of wack i hope you will tell me. one thing i noticed is when i reinstalled the base map 2 things caught my attention. on initial start wideband was toggleing around 12.5 to 13.0 afr. and runs a little rough. runs much better at idle around 11.5 or so.. and when i touch the throttle it misses and goes to 16.00 on afr (not sure if it is closed loop or not since i dont have a scan tool yet but it was only running 1-2 min when i saw this) also a 2k rpm it does the same thing studders and goes to 16:1 . why do you think when running 30# ford racing injectors at a calculated 45 lbs of fuel pressure that my map is at 10.7 in the idle range with 20hg vac (slightly on the richer side of neutral . it seems to be too lean atleast it runs rough and running it richer smooths it out at idle. the previous owner said that they were way overkill but it doesnt seem that way to me at this point. i would think that i would be taking fuel away at idle not adding it. we did agree that these injectors should flow more fuel than the stock ones didnt we? looking for something i can do till i get a scan tool. am i stuck or can i do something in the mean time? thanks sharp

[sharpxmen]

it doesn't make much sense to run better at 11.5AFR at idle.

are you 100% positive that wideband displays correctly?

closed loop: basically the way the PCM is programmed it has a base fuel table just like the FTC and using the O2 feedback it takes away or adds duty cycle to the injectors (reduces or increases the time the injectors are open) in order to achieve 14.7 AFR. When you add the FTC the MAP sensor voltage output and the size of the injectors is different, so you could unplug the O2 sensor and will force your PCM to operate based on the preset table, reset the PCM and then tweak your cells to get as close as possible to 14.7 when you are not in boost or close to boost and then alter the output progressively to try and achieve 12.5AFR at your max boost (should be fine since your max boost is 5psi). Once that's completed reconnect your O2 sensor, your fuel trims should be minimal for the range at which you targeted 14.7AFR. After that you can connect your enricher so you're adding fuel to be lower than 14.7 starting somewhere at -5inHg let's say for the sake of argument. that should be it for fuel. For idle, -20inHg vacuum and closed throttle 14.7 AFR is just fine, should not run any better at 11AFR and once you did that calibration above and have the O2 sensor plugged in should always stay at that value at idle. If it doesn't then it's either the wideband not displaying the correct value or maybe those injectors are no good (squirting instead of atomizing the fuel).

could also be something else going on, it somehow sounds like the MAP sensor output (from FTC) varies very little if any (16AFR) , you don't have some check valve on that line or maybe make sure the fitting or line is not plugged. You could monitor that output from the FTC to make sure it varies according to the change in vac/boost.

the other thing is that if you're trying to do this with the hood open and revving the engine forget it, the PCM will pick a high to low vac condition (engine break) and will lean out the mixture intentionally, it's just meant to operate that way (when you open the throttle the vac will go towards the zero quickly but as soon as the rpm goes up will drop). holding it at a constant 2000rpm should resume the AFR to 14.7 though.

[moparstroup]

no i am not sure. everything i got has been wrong. i did the calibration and it seems to be working but for one thing it never goes above 16.00. dont know if that is right. i just feel like i am missing something. previous owner said it ran fine except for this 2000 rpm stumble. nothing seems to make sense. i am not sure but i thought when i put the supercharger on and initially started it i thought it ran fine as far as idle and taking fuel. there is norestriction in the vac line to ftc map sensor. i told you about the tps that broke. i was sure that was what caused everything but i tried 3 different sensors and none made a difference. even if wideband was wrong it doesnt make sense that a slightly richer base map with bigger injectors would run leaner than the stock engine with stock programming. i agree injectors could be it but that would mean both sets were bad. i am going to see if these injectors have any numbers on them to make sure they are what they are supposed to be although the previous owner seems very intellegent and doubt he would have done something so wrong. i did not bypass timing map by reconnecting crank wire because it is all 0's (no change right) not reving engine in N took it for a ride around the block. stalled 5 timeswhen pulling out had to give it throttle to restart. never got to boost at all just trying to drive like grandma. i know i sound like a newbee but ive run a jeep dealer service dept  for almost 20 years. i need a scan tool but this whole thing doesnt make sense unless i made a mistake somewhere along the line but i cant find it. i will check map voltages like you said but with or without ftc in the equation it runs the same in no load un boosted condition, unless the fuel is jacked way up. way way up. any chance there could be a internal problem with the s/c that could cause this?

[sharpxmen]

no problem with the supercharger that can cause this, if you have boost it works, everything else is air to fuel ratio

you should never be over 15 AFR, so 16 is out of the question.

what you need to do is to monitor the FTC MAP sensor output values in relation to vac/boost. The fact that the AFR goes lean with all the values maxed out like you describe means that either your fuel pressure is way low, the injectors are not what they say they are or the map sensor voltage to PCM is wrong (too low or not changing). so at idle you should have 0.6v or so, at max boost (5PSI for the sake of argument) should be about 4.7v or around that value, at 0 should be roughly 4.7*(14.7/(14.7+5))=3.5v, at -10inHg the should be about 2.3v (these are not the exact values but to give you a reference point) - all this is with the 5psi base map and not with the values jacked up, this way you can confirm that the FTC map functions correctly and  if all these voltages check out then your fuel delivery is the problem (either pressure or injectors). Do this test and then you know what to focus on, with 30# injectors and the base map it makes absolutely no sense you get 16AFR with no boost, just doesn't add up but given that you get 11.5 AFR at idle to me it sounds like your MAP sensor voltage is off - i would just have a couple of wires ran from the stock map senseor connector into the cab and hook them up to a multimeter and just monitor it while driving, should give you a good indication of how much it varies, if without boost you're between 0.7 to 3.5 and about 2.3 or so at -10Hg then it works fine and you're in for some injector testing.

[moparstroup]

ok went back out and showed my son what it was doing and he showed me that it was reading 10 psi boost at idle. the whole map seemed to be corrupted. all the other ones started with like -25 hg to over 5 lbs boost. something was definitly wrong like file was corrupted. thought i was seeing an ftc map voltage issue but i dont think so. reloaded the base map and the numbers began to make sense 14.2 idleing ok leaning out under boost to the point it would missfire... that last post was altogether wrong. i thought i was looking at =20 hg column due to its placement on the graph but it actually said 10psi. wasnt wearing my glasses. again thank you so much for alll the help and info but it seems i am on the right track now. i will chime in in a few days and let you know how things are progressing. im sure your thinking you dumb @#$ i just should have been more thorough before i asked you for help. thanks again when this is over i am gonna owe you big time.

[sharpxmen]

cool, glad you got that sorted out - keep us posted, i enjoyed it. Looking forward to updates.

[moparstroup]

been doing some open loop mapping. got another issue. 2000 rpm it breifly goes into fuel cut. it does it worse the more load the engine is under. does it no load too but you cant feel it. i originally thought it was just a lean spot in the graph but no matter how high i raise it the afm spikes to 15-16  and engine bucks. once you get past that rpm it runs normally till you get to boost then it leans out (no enricher) i understand that part. got any ideas? i am thinking the computer is seing a varience because of the original map curve ending at 0 and new only 1/2 way at boost. i think i remember a code refering to tps doesnt agree with map and if thats in mine now i dont know what im gonna do to fix this. going tomarrow to scan computer i will let you know. one more thing during boost should i crank the fuel way up on ftc or keep it close to the ratio that i am changing the base map. my mapping is very close to the base map they sent me except down about a full digit or so.

[sharpxmen]

if the more air you get it gets leaner then it's either the MAP sensor voltage to PCM too low or faulty (you should still check that) or your injectors are too small.

do you get 14.7 AFR at idle and little over? (not 14.2 it should be 14.7 on the spot) - if not then you have some other issue as well (either narrowband or wideband O2 ground is off and the signal is off in turn).

EDIT:
without the enricher you should have 14.7 in closed loop and 12 to 13 in open loop, doesn't matter how much boost you have, should still be 14.7 closed loop, something's off.

[moparstroup]

... 14.7 on the spot, is that with or without narrow band plugged in? reread our conversation open loop mapping you are saying as close to 14.7 till just before boost then 12.0 from there on. do not use 12.0 at idle for open loop right. im sure closed loop would take it to 14.7 but you want it already there when it is warmed up in open loop also correct? reason im asking is that seems to be slightly over the limit before i get a bog on tip in. now to cover that tip in hesitation i need to richen up further down the graph closer to 0. ... once i am at 12.0  in boosst and slightly before open loop plug narrow band and it should go to 14.7 correct?    wide band is not rock steady it does bounce around a little once it is in a single cell as much as .4or so normal? didnt do the testing on map yet will this week when i have access to scan tool.

[sharpxmen]

14.7 with the narrowband plugged in. before boost start making it richer, you don't need 12 AFR as soon as it starts to be in boost, go progressive from 13.5 at -5inHg (for example) towards 12.5 at 6psi (or 12 if you think you need that rich but unless it's getting too hot and you get knock i think 12.5 its fine, anyway that's fine tuning more than anything). where ever you tuned to be close to 14.7 without the o2 sensor once you plug in the narrowband should be 14.7, everything else should be where your enricher kicks in so you should get close to whatever you tuned for (without the enricher the PCM would aim for 14.7 but that's not always achievable if the needed trims are too high). You'd never be in open loop at idle other than after starting the engine when the O2 sensor is getting to temperature.

[moparstroup]

thank you for clearing that up