Topic: Revolver Shackles: give CJ/YJ more flex than TJs have?

[chrisfranklin]

Only bring this up because I was looking at some other boards, think JeepsUnlimited, and some guys were posting about whether flex is better on a 4" lifted YJ with Revolver Shackles vs a 4" lifted TJ, presuming everything else was properly modified for both the lifts.  

Read a post or two stating that the lifted, Revolver-shackled YJ  might flex better than the TJ and that the revolvers are "amazing."  I am kind of finding this "flex-better" biz hard to believe; figure Revolvers would certainly help flex, but would not provide better articulation than coil springs offer.   I know what the TJ guys are going to say already on this  

[tommygp]

I have a few buddies that have run the Revolver Shackles, and none of them still do.  Most had problems with steep downhills.  The shackles want to unload on the REALLY steep stuff.  That means your weight is lifting further off the rear, and you're that much closer to going over front-ways.

I have done a few things that help the articulation but still provide the stability of leafs.

1 - Deaver Spring Baja Bushings.  They replace the main spring-eye bushings with what is essentially a Johnny Joint.  I only have them for the rear and I notice a fair amount of flex over the old poly bushings.  When I scratch up enough extra change I'm buying a set for the front.

2 - Custom shock mounts.  In-boarded the upper-rear mounts, converted to horizontal post mounts on the lower rear, custom shock hoops with traditional eye mounts.

I don't have a before & after RTI score, but I can assure you that the real-world results are positive.

In the end, I also put in a front lockright to go with the rear one.  Now it doesn't matter if a tire is in the air.

[chrisfranklin]

You mentioned you had front and rear lockrites.  I use a front Aussie, have had good luck with it, and am looking at installing a rear one, too.  How is your two autolocker (no-carrier replacement) setup treating you?  
Any trail traction problems, street problems?  

Yeah, what you were saying about the Revolvers unweighting on the downhill is interesting.  Some people have seemed to advocate a front-only install (or maybe that was rear only, I forget)

[Guardian7]

Coil spring Flex like this is hard to beat with leaf springs! (both Rigs have 33X12.50 tires) I have heard revolvers cause steering issues on the road also but cant confirm this.

[chrisfranklin]

It's all disinformation - steering probs, unweight on downhills - created by TJ owners to undermine any market for revolver shackles     (Kidding).

[tommygp]

You mentioned you had front and rear lockrites.  I use a front Aussie, have had good luck with it, and am looking at installing a rear one, too.  How is your two autolocker (no-carrier replacement) setup treating you?  
Any trail traction problems, street problems?  

Yeah, what you were saying about the Revolvers unweighting on the downhill is interesting.  Some people have seemed to advocate a front-only install (or maybe that was rear only, I forget)

I like being locked F&R.  I just put the front lockright in this summer.  I also have TJ shafts in front, so no vacuum disconnect and my front driveshaft spins all the time.  I haven't noticed any odd handling characteristics.  HOWEVER, mine is mostly a trail vehicle with only occassional street use.  It didn't handle perfect to begin with, but I didn't notice any difference from being unlocked up front.

Being locked F&R does make it tough to turn on some of the tight trails, but I don't mind doing the occassional 3-point turn.  I bet my 35's rub the springs before anything binds anyway.

[jagular7]

Suspension configurations will vary in design and layout. You are not really comparing the differences between the designs, what you are comparing is the limitations of the suspensions and the owner's money.

Stock leafs have limitations for carrying weight, locating the axle, and axle travel. Same for coils and links. However, you can spend little money wisely on both and get much better results.
But you have to look at the limitations of the suspension and change what limits your goal. When changing original configurations, you are going to cast a stone into the mix and make another aspect of the suspension to move out of its intended design range. Adding 2' long shackle will make the leafs droop farther, but if you don't have enough shock travel, its useless; if you don't have a way to limit the 'wrapping' of the leaf around the axle, its useless; if you don't have enough length in the leaf, its useless; etc.  Same for a coil link suspension. Get a 2' taller coil, if its too stiff, its useless; if the shocks don't travel, its useless; if the links bind, its useless; if the axle is not recenter and track bar properly designed, its useless; etc.

Biggest thing to configure is how to get the power to the wheels efficiently. Adding lockers is probably the best improvement of getting the power to the wheels. Adding different types of joints in the suspension will help cycle the axle through the articulation and release a lot of the binding. Shock travel will limit the cycle as well. With leafs, friction and space between the leafs needs to be address. With coils, its all the links and their geometry.

Articulation refers to the twisting of the axle wrt the frame. Anything attaching the 2 together will have to be addressed.

[Jeffy]

One of the weird things is how everyone jumps on the bash Revolver band wagon.  This happens on most forums by people who have heard from a friend of a friend who stop using them.  Well, I had Revolvers, all 4.  They are ok if you don't have a suspension lift or have a stiff suspension lift. (SUA).  If you're going to install Revolvers you really need to do a lot more then just bolt them on.  Most people who bought revolvers never set up the limiting strap either.  This controls the CG by controlling the unloading of the shackles.  They work find on and offroad.  Although going over speed bumps too fast can beat them up a bit.  The plastic piece in them will probably crack.  Once you go with a custom suspension SUA or a SOA, you won't need Revolvers if you build it right.

Now saying a properly built leaf setup can't get good flex is hogwash.  Most off the shelf leaf kits out there haven't been changed since the 80's.  People buying cheap kits is one of the problems. (like jagular7 said earlier)  Take a TJ lift and then take that same amount of money and you could do the exact same thing with a YJ.

Oh and here's a old review on Revolvers I did several years ago. http://www.4bangerjp.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9

Here's a friend of mine's YJ with a Custom 2" Alcan SOA.  The tires are 35" SSR's.

[tommygp]

Jeffy - It's a good thing that you mention limiting straps.  None of the people I knew with Revolvers were running limiting straps.  I've been trying to convince one of them that they should try them again with a limiting strap (they just tossed the shackles in a box) to see how they did.

How long was the limiting strap that attached from the diff to the crossmember?

[Jeffy]

Jeffy - It's a good thing that you mention limiting straps.  None of the people I knew with Revolvers were running limiting straps.  I've been trying to convince one of them that they should try them again with a limiting strap (they just tossed the shackles in a box) to see how they did.

How long was the limiting strap that attached from the diff to the crossmember?

Mine was built for me by the created of the Revolvers.  It was a custom job but he was running the same setup and diff as I was on his ARCA YJ.  When the revolvers were back there it would allow the axle to drop 4-6" I think (again depending on suspension and diff) and the revolvers would be at the point where they start to open.

[tommygp]

Cool.  My buddy has a D44 and Superlift springs, so that is about where I thought the measurement should be.  He's running a SYE, but not a CV shaft.  The guy that built his shaft convinced him that a CV shaft was not as good as a standard one.   :roll:   No harder than he wheels, I think he got led in the wrong direction.

[Jeffy]

Cool.  My buddy has a D44 and Superlift springs, so that is about where I thought the measurement should be.  He's running a SYE, but not a CV shaft.  The guy that built his shaft convinced him that a CV shaft was not as good as a standard one.   :roll:   No harder than he wheels, I think he got led in the wrong direction.

If you have the room, a non-CV shaft is stronger then a CV shaft.

I'll see if I can get a measurement of the strap one of these day's.

[tommygp]

Cool, thanks.

True on the shaft, but he has vibes and typically eats at least one set of u-joints each year.  That is why I think the CV would have been the better decision.  Trying to get just the right angles for a non-CV is a pain.  He ended up spending almost $400 with the guy to have him build the shaft and adjust the pinion angles appropriately.  I had a CV shaft built by a driveline shop here for about $225.

[jagular7]

How does strapping the diff housing help with revolvers, or whatever else?

I'm thinking that the strap is used at the point of full droop to hold the diff from rotating/wrapping? This is the point where the strap is stiff from tension, but anything else, won't help as you can't push against a rope. So I'll assume the full stretched length of the strap is critial for the amount of droop.

Is there one for the front also?

[tommygp]

You are essentially limiting the travel at the diff to prevent u-joint bind.  The outer ends of the axle (where the revolvers are located) are allowed to droop further because under articulation the diff becomes the center-point of the pivot.

The front probably wouldn't need it from a u-joint binding perspective since the driveshaft is quite a bit longer up front.  However the strap would keep the revolvers from opening up on steep inclines.