Author Topic: a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p  (Read 3204 times)

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chrisfranklin

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« on: November 28, 2006, 05:26:41 PM »
Ok, what should I do?

Have this Bestop trunk, but haven't installed it  http://www.4wd.com/productdetails.aspx?q=bestop+trunk&pid=4262401.  Was considering picking up a subwoofer.  

Do you think I should,
A) Install the Trunk and then install a subwoofer, say an 8 inch powered Marine Bazooka, in this relatively secure trunk enclosure or
B) Send the trunk back and order the very clean VDP setup which offers a subwoofer mount, available top cover (seals off the speaker from passing thieves), and a subwoofer and amp, too + still allows some storage space.    

Price is about the same, either choice, except that total shipping for buying the trunk and mailing it back is going to hit me for about $50.  

Note: I am a little leary of mounting a sub inside one of these Jeep Bestop Instatrunks, for the concern of killing the sound/bass output. Maybe my concern is right on or overblown, right?

mad mike

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2006, 08:17:46 PM »
i have a 800 watt system in my yj two 10's in a box in that little space and two 400 watt amps under the back seat and it sounds good    in my experience i think if you put a sub inside that bestop box it is going to rattle like crazy and any low bass that you have will just cause a loud hum if sound is what you want go with the sub  my box was built to completly fill that space and if my top is off and you walked by you wouldnt even know what was there cause the subs are right up against the back seat

chrisfranklin

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2006, 08:32:16 PM »
mad mike are your subs covered with something or it just not obvious that they are speakers?

I was even thinking of going with just a powered sub in a box, send back my instatrunk and dropping $30 on the VDP cover that VDP sells to block passerby-view of the sub/mount they sell.  That might do the job of obscuring the view of the sub in a box for cheap, as well allow for some decent,  relatively well-secured storage space.

Its really dawning on me that the only place to put any kind of sub in a wrangler, other than in a special center console, is behind the back seat.  Something tells me that I am not going to like the sound of a sub in an Instatrunk, dangnabbit!

mad mike

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2006, 08:40:22 PM »
he box they are in is carpeted so if you look in all you see is the top of the box and i mean it fills that space it is even hard for me to put the back seat down i will try to take some pics tomorrow and show you   but if someone wanted to steal my box they would have to put the back seat down in order to pull the box out

gomi

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2006, 08:51:39 PM »
Don't know if this helps you any, but I was at walmart today and opened the bazooka sub. The tube itself is completely plastic. Not sure what kind of sub it has or what the difference between the marine/non marine grade. Also, the little 10 inch sub I have is about 11 inches wide, and 8 inches deep with the amp mounted on the side. Not a bad deal for $50.

chrisfranklin

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2006, 10:13:22 PM »
Saw this little Sacramento outfit online that makes custom sub enclosures for YJ/TJ Wranglers.  http://www.just4effect.com/purchase.htm

Jesse-James

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2006, 10:22:47 PM »
Nice! Looks like it gives you more space than my VDP box. Cheaper too.

chrisfranklin

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2006, 11:10:16 PM »
Yeah, I think I am sending the instatrunk back.  Don't think a sub will work well with it and can't think of a secure place other than in the back (not going to use the center console or under the front seats)

I might, instead, do a custom enclosure (kind of stealthy) or just buy a VDP cover and mount a powered sub on the on the floor behind the rear seat.

Enjoi

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2006, 10:08:35 AM »
Quote from: "chrisfranklin"
Saw this little Sacramento outfit online that makes custom sub enclosures for YJ/TJ Wranglers.  http://www.just4effect.com/purchase.htm


wow, can fit a 12 inch sub 2....wonder how much room that would leave ya

Offline Jeffy

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2006, 11:58:34 AM »
Be careful if you buy a carpeted box and leave the top down a lot.  My biggest problem was not theft but rain.  If water of any kind hits the box, the partical board will flare up and fall apart.  The best option would be to take the carpeting off then paint the box so it's sealed then re-carpet it if you want it more weather proof.  Otherwise you could have it recovered in vinyl.

If you're keeping your rear seat and you occasionally have 3 other people in the Jeep, you might want something smaller then a dual setup.  What little room you have will be reduced significantly.  If you go offroad, you will want to make sure it is secured or else removable.  Also make sure your amp is located in a place where it won't get wet or just mount it to the box and remove it too.  Water collects at the lowest place so under the driver or passenger seat isn't a good place.  Not to mention it's not very flat there.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is what type of music do you listen to.  This will really dictate what type of speaker and box design you should go with.  Also, it's preference...

Quote
Types of boxes
Free Air - subwoofers are either mounted under the rear deck or behind the rear seat of a car. This configuration will not work very well for hatchbacks. Holes have to be cut where the woofers are to be mounted. Since the woofers use the whole trunk as a box, the trunk has to be as sealed as possible from the cabin. Trunk can be isolated usually by putting particle board under the deck and behind the seat.
The drawback of free air subwoofers is that bass will not be very accurate (especially at lower frequencies), and more amplifier power will be required than with a regular box, but then again, you still have a full trunk

Sealed - is the most common box and easiest to build. These boxes will give the flattest frequency response, and best overall sound quality (especially at lower frequencies). The box internal volume should be as close as possible to the recommended by the manufacturer. If a box is smaller than what it is supposed to be, the sound will be tighter, but more amplifier power will be required. If the box is too big, then the sound will be muddy.
 
Ported - boxes are usually bigger in size than sealed and have a "tube" (port) that lets some air out of the box. The idea of a ported box is that the speaker port pushes (or pulls) air at the same time as the woofer, reinforcing bass. The box itself acts as an amplifier, yielding to more bass than a sealed enclosure (3 to 4 dB). Ported boxes do not have a linear frequency response.  If the box is not built according to specifications, it will not sound good. The box design acts as a filter, cutting off lower frequencies.
 
Isobaric - configuration is a good way to get bass in a smaller box. This is done by building a box about half the volume of a sealed box, and placing two woofers facing each other. Note that everything must be sealed, including space between woofers. A spacer between both woofers must be used in most cases to avoid subs hitting each other. When wiring, make sure that woofers are out of phase: Wire one of them backwards (negative to positive, and positive to negative), so that both pull or push at the same time. An isobaric configuration will NOT put out much more power than a box using a single woofer.  Its main purpose is to reduce box size.  Another drawback is that since one of the subs is exposed, it is more prone to damage.

Band Pass -  enclosures consist of a woofer between a sealed and ported box.  Bandpass boxes  will yield more bass than sealed and ported boxes (especially at lower frequencies), but over a narrower frequency range. Since the box acts as a filter, mechanically blocking lower and upper frequencies, a crossover is not needed in most cases.  These enclosures are usually big, and very unforgiving when precise volumes and port sizes are not followed.  Bandpass boxes also tend to mask distortion.  If you can't hear distortion and turn your stereo down in time, you could damage your subs.

Aperiodic - Very small boxes that "breathe" through a moving membrane.  Both the membrane and cone can not be in the same exterior space.  Either the membrane part has to be isolated by cutting a hole in the car so that it is outside, or the subwoofer has to be isolated from the rest of the trunk in a similar fashion to free air woofers.  The "box" has to be as small as possible (ideally the membrane should be right up against the sub), since it is used only for coupling the sub and membrane.  Aperiodic membrane configurations are very hard to design and tune, but give good frequency response and respond faster to transients, giving accurate and tight bass as opposed to boomy sound.  They are not ruled by Thiele-Small parameters like other designs, so any woofer would work with the membrane.


Also make sure you get the right sub for your setup.  Some are designed to be used with a certain box type.  You will also want to check the specs on the sub to make sure the box is the right size for the sub.  Subs are designed to run optimally with a certain size box.

If this is your first time going with amps, do a little research on them also.  Make sure you compare apples with apples.  Some cheaper amps will list their Peak wattage because it's usually much higher then the RMS.  RMS is the peak sustainable wattage the amp can produce.

Then there is the question on if you want 'rear-fill' speakers or not.  Rear-fill are rear speakers.  If you don't have 3 or more people in the Jeep any any one time, rear-fill isn't really necessary unless you really like rear fill.  Otherwise concert style with all the speakers up front will do.  Keep in mind that the stock front speakers are pitiful.  Even if you replace them, with better speakers, they aren't going to be that great.  If you want better sound then it would be better have some 5.25" or 6.5" speakers mounted elsewhere.  There is a company that makes a small pods that go on the floor below the doors.  This is probably the furthest place to mount them without getting into the pedals.  This has to do with the sound imaging.  You want the left and right to be equal distance from you.  The further you mount them away from you the closer they are to being the same distance.



Another thing you might consider is running separate tweeters up might some place.  Also, you'll want to 'cap' the other speakers.  This will cut off the bass to them and will make them last longer.  Caps are capacitors.  You can find ones designed to be used with speakers.  Otherwise you can go to Radio Shack and buy the right cap.  Problem is you need to know what size cap will filter what part of the frequency.  I'm sure there is a chart online someplace for that too.  The ones that are prepackaged will have a frequency range listed on them.

Wow, that's a lot of stuff.  I've been through 2 receivers, +10 speakers and 3 boxes so far.  I want to eventually redo the whole system though.  Probably custom mount everything this time.  

Oh and keep in mind that if you have a soft top, you won't get anything close to decent sound.  You'll probably get lots of highs and a bit of bass but muddy mids at best.  Bass out of a open top or softop won't have much to bounce off of and you'll want more just so you can hear/feel it.  Problem is everyone else will be able to hear it too.

The difference between the Bazooka's.  Really to be called a Bazooka, it's got to be made by SAS. They have several models.  The cheapest is the single coil.  Then the next model up is the dual coil.  Then they have the powered tubes.  They have a 100w and the 200w bass tubes.  The difference with the Marine models is that they are UV and moisture resistant so they can handle a bit of rain and lots of sun better then the regular models.

For those with subs already, make sure you dust the sub off occasionally.  Dust will pull moisture out of the speaker membrane and cause it to dry-rot. (I've had to fix a few tears in mine.)
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"If the motor car were invented today, there is absolutely no way that any government in the world would let normal members of the public drive one."

mad mike

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2006, 01:56:18 PM »
jeffy you got alot of free time huh? :lol:

chrisfranklin

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2006, 03:15:04 PM »
Thanks for the write-up.  That's pretty much the whole picture there.  With my softop on - mine the supposedly "quiet" Sail Cloth  :roll: - I am going to probably get what you are talking about: highs, which I already have, and subwoofer lows, but no real mid-range.  Top-off, this is just going to get worse.  

Even so, I was thinking of doing this kind of setup:

-VDP metal cover (looks like an instatrunk top that you can get for $30)
-my exisiting fold and tumble rear seat & locking tailgate
- 1  non-marine 8" "powered" bazooka (we don't get a ton of rain down here and I either have the top up or know well ahead of time due to everybody moaning :D

I am probably wrong on this, but presumably the sub would be relatively secure in this situation - I couldn't fold and tumble the rear seat unless I opened the tailgate to get to the seatlever; the VDP cover would prevent me from accessing the lever unless I opened the tailgate.  

When I listen to music, I either keep the back seat in position and let the sub work through that.  Or I can fold and tumble the rear seat and just let the sub audio reflect off the tailgate to the front seats.  When I stop, I can just fold the rear seat back in to position for security.  

Note: the above all sounds nice in writing, but does anybody have any experience with the fit on those VDP simulated trunk covers, Guardian, Bueller, Bueller...

Offline Jeffy

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2006, 03:56:20 PM »
I currently have Rockford Fosgates 4x6's in the dash that are caped off and a 8" Rockford Punch sub with 160w mono amp going to it.  The amp is a 2x50 (1x160).  Bought it all from Crutchfield several years ago.  I've got very little mids.  Like I said I had speakers down low and I'll probably go with that next time around.  My 4x6's fire right into my rollcage which screws them up too.

If your amp is small one place to mount it is the underside of my seat.  This should give it enough air while being up and out of the way.  I'll probably mount my amp this way when I move things around again.  It's currently in the back screwed into the wide of the wheel well behind the rear seat.

Got a link for the VDP metal cover?

If you really wanted to make something cheap, you could get some L channel brackets and bolt them to the wheelwell then take some MDF, particle board of even 1/4" compressed board and bolt that to the brackets.  Cover the board with some carpet or vinyl and it would look like a trunk.  You could primer and paint it too.  Probably cost less then $20.
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZNlr60GXH5OlKIFrT7P6mg
My Jeep: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=2783.0
"If the motor car were invented today, there is absolutely no way that any government in the world would let normal members of the public drive one."

mad mike

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2006, 04:53:57 PM »

chrisfranklin

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a rider post to gomi's "cheap sub for your jeep" p
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2006, 05:13:40 PM »
Here's a link for "VDP subwoofer security top."  http://www.4wd.com/productdetails.aspx?pid=795751

The picture in the link shows the whole setup, but what they are selling for $30 is just the black metal panel that runs across the top and looks like a trunk top.  Thing is, I can't really tell whether you can bolt that panel to the wheel wells or whether it's attaches only to the top of a VDP subwoofer.  

Thanks for the pictures of your setups  :D