Author Topic: Turbochargers  (Read 109984 times)

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Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #465 on: December 05, 2011, 08:14:21 AM »
My turbo Setup.  1998 Jeep Wrangler SE (4 banger) 3 speed auto.

SETUP

Turbo: T04E/T3 (.50 cold/.63 hot)
PSI:  9psi
Intercooler: Yes
Esternal Wastegate
Haltech Parallel Setup Fuel/Timing Managemnet (Dyno Tuned)
Gains: 85hwp  :dance:

looks good. How's the Halltech working, any details on the install, setup and tune?

how did you get the gains at 85whp? would mean your motor makes about 300HP total which is extremely impressive.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
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Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #466 on: December 06, 2011, 12:10:21 PM »
how did you get the gains at 85whp? would mean your motor makes about 300HP total which is extremely impressive.

crickets...  :wall:
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

alexr40

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #467 on: December 13, 2011, 03:58:18 PM »
I dynotuned my jeep before the Setup.

I have seen a couple of guys putting down 82-82whp on this 2.5L (120bhp rated). All i have seen are Manuals, without A/C and 31s or stock tires.

I dynoed mine with A/C, automatic trans, and 33s Boggers and it put down 54whp. I guess I had a few death ponies, with heavier tires, and automatic (parasitic loss)..



after trying with a few different fuel management methods, It wasnt cutting it and I was running lean. I even tried adding an extra Fogger/injector.

I replaced my injectors with 850cc and injecting two times per 4cycle and the Haltech , the ponies started appearing while running rich rich.

at 6.67 psi I gained 71whp.


Now i am runing @ 9 and gained like 15whp..

140whp... but with all my parasitic loss... the engine must be around 230-240. at most.. I dont think it touches nothing near 300hp.

Offline chardrc

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #468 on: December 13, 2011, 05:16:23 PM »
whats with the spike in hp on the original run and the jump down in torque on the turbo run? your jeep must fly with more than twice the power to the wheels.
1990 YJ 4cly, ax5, 2.5 inch BDS lift, 31 MTr\'s,  Powertrax-lockers all around, track-bars removed, boomerang shackles, warn m8000 winch, electric fan. [sold but not forgotten]

2007 jk Rubicon 2dr

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #469 on: December 13, 2011, 08:26:02 PM »
I dynotuned my jeep before the Setup.

I have seen a couple of guys putting down 82-82whp on this 2.5L (120bhp rated). All i have seen are Manuals, without A/C and 31s or stock tires.

I dynoed mine with A/C, automatic trans, and 33s Boggers and it put down 54whp. I guess I had a few death ponies, with heavier tires, and automatic (parasitic loss)..

after trying with a few different fuel management methods, It wasnt cutting it and I was running lean. I even tried adding an extra Fogger/injector.

I replaced my injectors with 850cc and injecting two times per 4cycle and the Haltech , the ponies started appearing while running rich rich.

at 6.67 psi I gained 71whp.

Now i am runing  (at)  9 and gained like 15whp..

140whp... but with all my parasitic loss... the engine must be around 230-240. at most.. I dont think it touches nothing near 300hp.


well if that is all correct you just beat the laws of physics - my bet is that there was an error on your initial dyno run, you just can't make 140% more power by adding less than 50% air (atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi, you added 6.7psi which is 45% roughly, not to mention losses with adding a turbo so you would not be getting exactly 45% more power). more realistically maybe adding the Halltech fixed some of your initial fuel issues so if you would have re-dynoed without the turbo probably would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 80HP (30% loss in the powertrain let's say for the sake of argument) in which case the gain would be 45HP - still not there as far as numbers, it is more than what the numbers tell so there has to be some error somewhere

basically for you to gain 120HP total you'd need 14.7psi and that is not considering any losses (ideal and not real world scenario), for 9 psi you can do the math to get the propper percentage

the reason i said 300HP is considering 85HP gain at 9 psi at the wheels (taking 30% drivetrain loss) and using simple math
total_HP=(85*(14.7+9)/9)/0.7 = 319HP, and that again is without losses in an ideal scenario, very unlikely.

I'm sure you make way more power than before just the gains are not realistic, some parameters in one of those dyno pulls were off (maybe in both, not sure).

i checked your project on Jeepforum, looks good, interesting you had to get a new crank pickup - seems that the guy was trying to get the signal of the cam sensor which is 1 tick every couple of rotations and is not too precise either (it's only used to trigger the injector opening sequence) but I like the new pickup solution.

One other thing, reading thru your project posts seems that you run rich without boost and then you lean out when your boost goes up, should be the other way around though - one thing i noticed is that your injectors are 80lb/hr, that could be the reason your afr is way too rich at no boost and low to none throttle opening, the injectors are too large
check this link and give it a read http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
your injectors should be somewhere around 40lb/hr, about half of what you have installed right now. The other thing is that with the current injectors you should def not be too lean in boost so that's anothe thing i would look into (tuning).

good job on putting it all together, keep us posted how it works.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

alexr40

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #470 on: December 16, 2011, 07:35:52 AM »
whats with the spike in hp on the original run and the jump down in torque on the turbo run? your jeep must fly with more than twice the power to the wheels.

that spike is the torque multiplication during automatic transmission downshift!  same thing happened in my SVT lightning at dynos when shifting. Torque will go very high then drop real quick.. that's normal.. that spike numbers shouldnt be considered .

alexr40

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #471 on: December 16, 2011, 07:44:04 AM »

basically for you to gain 120HP total you'd need 14.7psi and that is not considering any losses (ideal and not real world scenario), for 9 psi you can do the math to get the propper percentage



I gained around 70's with almost 7psi.  I guess that's the standard of around 10whp per psi.
The dyno runs were different days, but were on the same dyno, same climate, same tuner, and a couple of runs just gabe those 54whps.

Yes my setup consists of a hall sensor pickup for crank position.  Almost everything is standalone except for the stock ECU still running parallel for transmission purposes....

some stuff to think about.. first dyno run was with old cheap plugs.. new dyno runs were with new high performance plugs, new injectors, etc..

anyways... the power difference on the street is very noticiable.  Its a completely new vehicle. I got the power that i was looking for... If i got 10whp more or 10whp less.. I dont really care right now.. this is not a race car  :P

I am replacing my .63 hotside housing in a few weeks with a .48 .. I am looking forward into getting at least 500rpms faster spool.. I am boosting at 3000rpms  with I found higher in an engine that shifts and rev at around 5000rpms.

I will be replacing the distributor with direct-fire individual coils too.

lets see how it goes..

alexr40

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #472 on: December 16, 2011, 07:50:34 AM »
One other thing, reading thru your project posts seems that you run rich without boost and then you lean out when your boost goes up, should be the other way around though -

right now i am runing 12.3-12.6 at  IDLE in Gear  and cruise....  and  10.9-11.1 at full boost.....   I like it rich in this 9.2 compression full stock engine.. I havent fouled any sparkplug yet either.

In Park gear the A/F goes like 10.9-11.3 but the tuner told me its normal because it doesnt have load. In order to have a 12-13 a/f at IDLE in gear (with some load) .. the table goes richer with 0 load...

I know i can lean it a little but i like the power i get from that extra gas mixing up with the atomized air coming from the turbo even at vacumm...

I preffer to be in the safe side. rather change plugs now and then than pistons and start having heating issues and blowing gaskets etc.


Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #473 on: December 16, 2011, 09:40:48 AM »
I gained around 70's with almost 7psi.  I guess that's the standard of around 10whp per psi.

your baseline was off, so rather look at the total and not the difference.

if you take your 2 runs with the turbo, 6.67psi ~ 125HP, 9psi ~ 140HP, your first run results in  125.71/(6.67+14.7)=5.88HP/psi, second run 140/(9+14.7)=5.90HP/psi so that's your gain per psi - your baseline in that case would be (taking an average between the 2) = 14.7*5.89=87HP
(EDIT: just noticed that it's kind of in line with the spike on you baseline run which is where the t/c locked and that's the real HP, they should have run it past that point)

14.7 is your engine without any boost, any calculation on your boost gain would have to include that and not just the  boost (as in at 1 psi boost you divide total HP by 14.7+1=15.7).

right now i am runing 12.3-12.6 at  IDLE in Gear  and cruise....  and  10.9-11.1 at full boost.....

In Park gear the A/F goes like 10.9-11.3 but the tuner told me its normal because it doesnt have load. In order to have a 12-13 a/f at IDLE in gear (with some load) .. the table goes richer with 0 load...


there's no reason to run that rich at idle and no boost, i understand having it rich when your turbo kicks in to be safe but 11 at idle is just wasting fuel - how's the gas mileage? (in case you checked it, not that it matters since all Jeeps with lift and tires are horrible in that department but for the sake of argument)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 10:22:32 AM by sharpxmen »
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #474 on: December 17, 2011, 08:30:04 AM »
The dyno runs were different days, but were on the same dyno, same climate, same tuner, and a couple of runs just gabe those 54whps.

I meant to bring this up before, if you look at your 54HP dyno graph it is at 3000rpm, stock 2.5L makes top power at 5250rpm.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

alexr40

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #475 on: December 24, 2011, 12:20:37 PM »
yeah that scale is not efficient because there are two gears in the same sheet.

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #476 on: December 24, 2011, 01:50:18 PM »
yeah that scale is not efficient because there are two gears in the same sheet.

my point is that's why you're only getting 54HP in that run since it is at 3000rpm, by the same account if you run it at idle your numbers would be different - could be deliberate, i doubt they didn't notice the rpm issue - but i can only guess, I would bring it up with them if i were you.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

alexr40

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #477 on: January 05, 2012, 10:11:59 AM »
I confirmed with the tuner. the numbers in below the other charts are MPH not RPM...

anyways Replaced the .63 Housing with a .48

Better midrange power... (up to 20-25hp more in the midrange. Lost some TOP END as expected)..
More faster Spool. see how now i get 8psi when I use to have like 3-4 psi.

This are the results sheet.

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #478 on: January 05, 2012, 12:37:30 PM »
I confirmed with the tuner. the numbers in below the other charts are MPH not RPM...
same difference still, the rpm at 30mph would be 1/2 the one at 60mph. The "speed" is completely irrelevant here since you're not experiencing any aerodynamic forces so i'm not sure why they are not using rpm just like every other dyno graph.



something is confusing here, why would the second run drop at 68mph where the previous one was at 72 (EDIT: 76mph actually), you're also making more or same power with 2psi less boost and that could be something related to the AFR/tuning or maybe ignition advance as it is strange since it is the same engine (AFR graph would be great to have in this case to compare the 2).

125HP at the wheels is great if the numbers are accurate.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 12:48:10 PM by sharpxmen »
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

alexr40

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Re: Turbochargers
« Reply #479 on: January 09, 2012, 11:07:32 AM »
we moved the rpm rev limiter form 6000 to 5600 and we left the foot before revving... there was no more power upthere.