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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jonzjeepyj on December 15, 2008, 07:31:37 PM
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After installing my shackle reversal kit I gained 1" of lift over my 4" Suspension spring lift for a total of 5" of lift. I added 1"lift shackles in the rear to level the Jeep. I wanted to go a little taller and noticed the rear shackles on the shackle reversal kit for the front look Identical to a universal lowering shackle. I know you have to lift 2 inches to gain 1 inch of lift since your are only lifting one end of the spring. My question is...
Has anyone ever tried to use lowering shackles to gain additional height, in the front, on a shackle reversal kit?
I went to a local parts store and they have universal lowering shackles with measurements in between center of mounting bolts of 7 1/2 inches. My one inch lift shackles measure 6 inches in between center of bolts. That would give me an additional 3/4 inch of lift in the front. I could make up the difference with regular lift shackles in the rear going from 1" to 2" lift shackles. For $39.99 I could gain an additional 3/4" of lift for the front and fabb/weld my own shackles for the rear at no cost. Not bad in my book if it works. What does everyone think?
Right now I'm running 33x12.5x15 Dakota AT's
I clear the 33's but want some additional height.
Thanks, John
Rough Country Shackle Reversal Kit with new Shackles
6" From Center to Center of Bolts (1" Of Lift Over Stock)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/RoughCountryShackleReversal.jpg)
Universal Lowering Shackles
7 1/2" From Center to Center of Bolts (1 3/4" of Lift Over Stock)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/LoweringShackles.jpg)
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It will work, but I think placing shackles into the frame spring hangers is booty-fab, usually puts the rear of the spring closer to the ground and screws up pinion angle and caster. The best method is mounting the top of the shackle through the frame similar to how the rear shackle is attached.
How do you move the trailing end of the leaf spring downward 6" from the frame hanger, and only gain 1" of lift? Caster and pinion angle have to be FUBAR'd.
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It will work, but I think placing shackles into the frame spring hangers is booty-fab, usually puts the rear of the spring closer to the ground and screws up pinion angle and caster. The best method is mounting the top of the shackle through the frame similar to how the rear shackle is attached.
How do you move the trailing end of the leaf spring downward 6" from the frame hanger, and only gain 1" of lift? Caster and pinion angle have to be FUBAR'd.
x2 That kit looks like a piece of crap. The shackles should be going through the frame. Doing a shackle lift with a shackle reverse is a really bad idea.
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WoW ! It looks like a piece of crap ! Tell me how you really feel and don't sugar coat it! I didn't move it 6" and only gain 1" of lift. The stock shackle when mounted on the front was 4" center to center of eye bolts. When I added a shackle reversal to the front, it didn't use the original shackles and replaced them with a one piece arm with 6" center to center of the bolts, gaining 1" overall lift up front. I added a T-Case lowering kit and SS Brake lines also. As for my pinion angles there are very good and will probably last quite awhile due to the type of driving I do. Before slinging "mud" so to speak, I have seen a lot of Jeeps that I didn't like but didn't call them CRAP ! I plan on doing **NO** wheeling with this Jeep at this time! Maybe in the future it will become a toy but for now I want it for a daily driver. I have owned 4 different Jeeps/ F150/ Full Size Bronco/ Toyota Pickup all lifted and I beat on them pretty hard. I have had my fun off road and wanted to drive a 4 banger Jeep to and from work for fun. I'm not interested in articulation, Lockers, Mud Tires and Dana 60's front and rear, I just wanted a Good Looking Jeep (IMO) to ride around in.
Do you know how many dully trucks that aren't used up to their potential, 3500 trucks rated for 10,500lbs of towing that tow a 3000Lb trailer or a Jeep sitting on 36's locked front and rear geared with all the goodies that sits on a trailer and gets used 6 times a year. Almost all Jeeps set up from the factory look like crap to me and I've see several jeeps with 2 1/2 lift shackles up front that also look like CRAP.
I wanted to add the shackle reversal to my Jeep because of all the Highway driving I do. I drive 14 miles or 25 minutes each way to work. THAT's why I added the SR to my Jeep. I do appreciate everyone's feedback and knowledge in areas that I not an expert in but if this is the way you guys want to build a web site I guess I'm not going to be a part of this. This has really left a bad taste in my mouth. I shouldn't feel offended by the choices I make about my Jeep
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Not calling your jeep crap, just the Rough country shackle reversal kit. I'd be concerned about the safety of that kit on the highway. Not connecting the 2 front bolt on brackets is a shortcut I've never seen before in a SR kit. Using the old leaf bracket as a shackle bracket is a shortcut I've seen before, but the company I knew of that used to do it redesigned their kit.
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Here's an example of a better kit, but it's still bolt on so they are mounting the shackles in a slightly better but still sub-optimal way.
http://www.bds-suspension.com/php/ShowProductInfo.php?pid=124011
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Strange, I thought Rough Country used the kit made by Fly-N-High. There were three companies Fly-N-High, Rough Country and Trail Master who used the same kit developed by FNH. It kit used to not reuse the existing rear leafspring hanger but rather required you to grind it off then drill a few holes into the frame and sleeve them. Welding was optional. They also had a lateral support for the front which they have omitted as well.
Only a one kit out there had you drill a big hole to mount the shackle into the frame. Most had a bracket under the frame. And the cheaper ones reused the existing mounts. Most of the ones that use the stock mount increase lift by 2". Full-Traction was the first to mount shackles into the stock hangers. The problem with that is the shackles end up hanging really far down because of the drop added to the front with the bolt-on bracket. This really exposes the shackle to damage offroad. M.O.R.E. is the only company that mounts the shackle into the frame. They also sell a few bolt-on mounts like everyone else too.
(http://www.mountainoffroad.com/Catalog/srs/8795-32.jpg)(http://www.mountainoffroad.com/Catalog/srs/8795-22.jpg)
It's a bad idea to add any more lift with shackles. The main problem is that it will point your pinion down a few degrees. It will also screw up the caster by increasing it even more which can effect steering and handling.
Really though, if you don't care about how it preforms then go ahead and add them. You won't drive it enough worry about wear.
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It's a bad idea to add any more lift with shackles. The main problem is that it will point your pinion down a few degrees. It will also screw up the caster by increasing it even more which can effect steering and handling.
The bigger problem if you use it offroad is how it wants to pull your front driveshaft apart. Normally a SR will require a longer slip driveshaft, the more shackle length you add, the more the driveshaft pulls out when the front suspension is unloaded.
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The bigger problem if you use it offroad is how it wants to pull your front driveshaft apart. Normally a SR will require a longer slip driveshaft, the more shackle length you add, the more the driveshaft pulls out when the front suspension is unloaded.
14 mile commute on paved roads? I don't think it's going to be a problem. If he does plan on going offroad he can fix all the issues it caused later.
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14 mile commute on paved roads? I don't think it's going to be a problem. If he does plan on going offroad he can fix all the issues it caused later.
OK, how about if he decides to take a poser picture on a yard rock? :wall:
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I'll state it again.
AT THIS TIME I PLAN ON DOING NO WHEELING OF ANY KIND!
I understand the benefits and the drawbacks of the SR and know why they added the bar in between the two front mounts. To avoid spring wrap and to strengthen the mounting hardware. I have weighed the pros and Cons and didn't want to spend the extra money on a better kit and drill through the frame when in the future, I will be removing the kit when it becomes a toy. Extra holes that aren't being used will weaken the frame IMO.
I also don't see the difference from someone running longer lift shackles on the front of the spring and a SR kit with longer arms on the rear of the front spring. 2" lift shackles will run 10 inches overall and 8 inches center to center of bolts. This looks very scary and funny IMO. The stock shackle mounted on the front and the arm that comes with the SR kit are identical in mounting length, 4 inches center to center at bolts, so how could this be any different. They are just mounted on the rear of the leaf spring instead of the front. The stock bracket that the spring mounts to up front is not through drilled and mounted. It is welded on and mine was twisted a little. I welded it back into place. My kit drops the mounting bolt 1 inch on the front and gains a half inch of lift by bolting a new bracket over the existing bracket that is welded to the frame as well as the rear mounting bracket . In this case it doesn't push the axle forward or backwards the since it's lifting it equal from front to back.
With the T-Case drop , which is not recommended for rock crawlers due to clearance issues, , does my pinion angles fine for highway driving. In the future I will be doing things differently and adding a lot of more mods that will be more trail friendly. As for now I want a great street riding Jeep to get me to work and back. I have too many other hobbies and money pits. I can't through $1000.00's of ponies at this Jeep when it intended to go up and down the highway to work.
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AT THIS TIME I PLAN ON DOING NO WHEELING OF ANY KIND!
Yup, I said I wouldn't drive it on the highway like that.
I also don't see the difference from someone running longer lift shackles on the front of the spring and a SR kit with longer arms on the rear of the front spring. 2" lift shackles will run 10 inches overall and 8 inches center to center of bolts. This looks very scary and funny IMO.
It is scary, and anyone running shackles like that on the street should have their head examined.
The stock shackle mounted on the front and the arm that comes with the SR kit are identical in mounting length, 4 inches center to center at bolts, so how could this be any different. They are just mounted on the rear of the leaf spring instead of the front.
It is different because instead of being mounted in the middle of the frame, they are cantelievered off the bottom of the frame. I'm getting that you don't understand the forces involved, but it's much worse for it to be set up that way.
If you swap even longer shackles in, make sure you do some hard turns on an abandoned road before driving in traffic or with anyone else in the vehicle.
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I may not be understanding what you are saying but I do know that the way they were mounted on the front of the stock spring were also cantilevered. The bracket was welded to the frame and the top of the shackle cantilevered off the bracket. It was not through bolted through the frame. Now it's just shifted to the rear of the spring instead of the front. The way this kit uses their brackets to bolt over the original mounting brackets makes the mounting position almost identical to the original position, just 1 inch lower. Neither the front nor the rear stock shackle were through frame mounted, both have brackets welded to the bottom of the frame and were cantilever mounted.
I said
running 2 inch lift shackles on the front of a stock set up would equate to a 10 inch overall shackle height that is mounted on the stock bracket that was welded to the bottom of the frame with the shackle mounting position cantilevered down 2 inches off the bottom of the frame is the same as...
a shackle reversal kit that mounts the spring perch over the existing mount that was welded to the bottom of the frame and cantilevered 2 inches off the bottom of the frame, is now cantilevered 3 inches down off the bottom of the frame. Not much different.
The stock front shackle is 4 inches center to center and the SR shackles are identical in length, 4 inches center to center. The difference being that now the front and the rear mounting brackets are cantilevered down 3 inches off the frame instead of 2 inches off the frame.
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It is scary, and anyone running shackles like that on the street should have their head examined.
Anyone running a stock set up with two inch lift shackles should have their head examined ?????
I don't agree !
Yes their are drawbacks to every mod you do. The effects of the drawbacks very in degree and everyone must be able to live with their effects. There are a lot of people running 2 inch lift shackles and stuffing 33 under their Jeeps
"Look At Me With 33's"
and yes there are drawbacks as well as benefits.
John
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I never called your jeep crap, and don't think anybody else did either. Don't take constructive criticism so personal, it boils down to nobody here wanting to see you use something dangerous. Our intentions are sincere.
Bear with me on the suspension geometry. The front frame mounted spring hanger is the same length as the stock shackle, so no change there. The trailing end of the leaf spring is now moved 6" lower than it's original position. That's 3" increase in lift, a large increase in caster, and the front pinion has to be pointed way low (toward the ground). The only way around this is to redo the spring perches on the axle. No way around that geometry when you lower one end of the spring 6" from stock. That's what it boils down to.
To keep your front suspension geometry somewhat correct, your frame mounted spring hangers would need to be 6" longer than the stock shackles. Then your leaf springs would be level, caster and pinion angle would be in check.
I don't think anybody implied your jeep is setup poorly for offroad, it appears to be setup poorly for any use (especially onroad).
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Thanks for your concern for my safety. It is appreciated. But when someone says...
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x2 That kit looks like a piece of crap. The shackles should be going through the frame.
How would you take it knowing you have already installed the kit and have been driving
around on it for 3 months?
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The trailing end of the leaf spring is now moved 6" lower than it's original position. That's 3" increase in lift
I want to make something clear, I'm not proposing to extend the arm 6+ inches for a gain of 3+ inches of lift.
I was suggesting to go from a 6 inch shackle arm that was included in the kit, to a 7 1/2 inch shackle arm, that I would purchase, for a lift of 3/4 of an inch.
I gained 1/2 inch of lift from the brackets that bolt over the existing spring mounts and 1/2 inch from replacing the stock shackle and adding the new shackle/arm that was included in the kit. The stock shackles were at 5 inches center to center of bolts and the new shackle arm that was included in the kit, is now 6 inches center to center of bolts. I proposed to purchase a slightly larger shackle arm going from 6 inches to 7 3/4 inches for a lift of an additional 3/4 of an inch.
Does that clear up what I'm proposing? I agree that there are better ways of lifting. I wanted to smooth out the ride of my highway vehicle and didn't want to drill holes in the frame when I plan on removing the kit down the road. I eventually want to do a SOA lift, swap axles for stronger rears and gain disc brakes in the rear along with many other upgrades in the future. I do agree that through bolting the shackle through the frame is a much better way of bolting a SR to the frame but the stock set up did not do this and I plan on removing this in the future for more aggressive and trail worthy modifications.
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I know what you're proposing, and what I was talking about was the modification you already made over stock.
Can we agree that the leading end of the spring is in relatively the same position as the stock shackle?
Can we agree that the trailing end of the spring is 6" lower than the stock position?
As your caster sits now, you're steering is overworked and your front end probably rises and falls as you cycle the steering side to side.
Don't get bent if somebody calls that kit crap, it's their opinion. I for one can't believe they sell it. You wouldn't be posting on a public forum if you didn't want feedback, and you have to be able to take the good with the bad.
Can you do us a favor and post a pic of the installed product? Leaf springs from a side angle? Pinion angle?
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Can we agree that the leading end of the spring is in relatively the same position as the stock shackle?
No
The front spring eye is actually mounted closer to the frame since the shackle in not being used. It's now mounted over not in addition to the existing spring bracket. The front of the spring went up 1 1/2 inches and the rear of the spring went down 1 inches. Subtract the two (1 1/2 inches from the 1 inches) and your left with 1/2 inch higher all together.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/IMG_0089.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/IMG_0091.jpg)
These shackle arms are 5 inches center to center of bolts. Stock shackles are 4 inches center to center, a difference of 1/2 in height. 2 inch lift shackles for the front of a stock set up would be 8 inches center to center of bolts. I wanted to go with a new shackle arm mounted to the back of the spring that was 7 1/2 inches center to center of bolts, not much different from a 2 inch stock lift shackle.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/IMG_0092.jpg)
***Here are my angles***
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/IMG_0095.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/IMG_0099.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/IMG_0098.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/IMG_0103.jpg)
Most people have the long shackles up front hanging down low. Mine are at the rear
of the front spring instead of the front. Not much different in my book for a visual difference.
John
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Well, here's what I think. I would not run longer shackles. I can see a lot of problems that the SR caused but since you don't go offroad or 4wd, you won't notice most of them. The front drivesahft angle is pretty bad and is not running in the same plane as it should be. The output of the transfer case and the pinion should be running parallel to each other so each U-joint turns at the same speed. But again, your driveshaft doesn't turn while in 2wd.
Generally speaking any shackle over an inch lift is excessive. You could correct for some of your pinion angle by shimming the diff but I don't think it will get level so the pinion and caster will be stock. You'd really need to get an accurate measurement on the angle of the two U-joints.
The ride and handling are supposed to be better with a SR kit but I doubt that's the case. The main reason being, the trackbar is still attached and that makes a HUGE difference in ride.
From the pictures, you're also missing a bumper bolt for the front hangers.
PS: relax. :smokes:
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Couple comments
1) In the picture where you show the front of the front spring bracket. Isn't that slotted hole supposed to be bolted to the frame using the lower bumper bolt? That looks extremely dangerous.
2) You can't tell what your driveline angles look like unless the picture shows the piniondriveshaft and tcase in one picture - unless you slap an angle finder on the yokes and take a picture of that.
3) Having the shackles hang in the back is a lot different. Currently your bottom shackle bolt is at about the midline of your axle. To get the same effect on the front your shackles would be about a foot long.
(http://www.oldjeep.com/files/IMG_0103.jpg)
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One more thing that I notice from the pictures - the shackles are actually leaning forward? Maybe that'll go away when the leafs settle out a bit, but it suprises me that you say that it rides well. I would expect it to be rather jarring when you hit a bump and that shackle has to get pushed back to vertical and then beyond.
It also appears that the shackles are on backwards. Not that you will likely get enough flex for it to matter, but the open end goes towards the spring - the side with the plate goes away from the spring.
Edit: Looked at their instructions and they actually picture installing them that way - weird
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One more thing that I notice from the pictures - the shackles are actually leaning forward? Maybe that'll go away when the leafs settle out a bit, but it suprises me that you say that it rides well. I would expect it to be rather jarring when you hit a bump and that shackle has to get pushed back to vertical and then beyond.
It also appears that the shackles are on backwards. Not that you will likely get enough flex for it to matter, but the open end goes towards the spring - the side with the plate goes away from the spring.
I'll expand on the shackles a bit more. What he's saying is that when the suspension compresses the leaf has to fight to push the shackle to vertical. This becomes a bigger issue when you start articulating the suspension to it's limits. The shackle could force the leaf spring to fold in on itself instead of pushing the shackle this caused the shackle to fold inwards. Optimally, you want your shackles to be angled away from the axle a few degrees so this doesn't happen.
My guess though is that because the leaf spring is raised at such and angle, it just looks like the shackle isn't right.
I suspect the driveshaft angles look something like this :uhoh:
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/yokomura/IMG_0103.jpg)
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It is still jarring after I installed the kit. What did improve was the wondering. From what your and others are telling me, I will gain a lot of ride quality if I remove the track bars front and back. I haven't had the time to take them off yet to see the difference. I was going to do this last weekend but ran out of time. I will be taking them off though. Thanks for the suggestion.
Yes I took out the bumper bolt and I'm replacing them with regular hex head bolts to get rid of the special star
pattern bolt. I may just run a weld down the front.
Remember, The shackles I installed were the ones that came with the kit.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/IMG_0100.jpg)
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That looks about right.
Maybe I should just get 6 inch springs?
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Can we agree that the leading end of the spring is in relatively the same position as the stock shackle?
No
The front spring eye is actually mounted closer to the frame since the shackle in not being used. It's now mounted over not in addition to the existing spring bracket. The front of the spring went up 1 1/2 inches and the rear of the spring went down 1 inches. Subtract the two (1 1/2 inches from the 1 inches) and your left with 1/2 inch higher all together.
These shackle arms are 5 inches center to center of bolts. Stock shackles are 4 inches center to center, a difference of 1/2 in height. 2 inch lift shackles for the front of a stock set up would be 8 inches center to center of bolts. I wanted to go with a new shackle arm mounted to the back of the spring that was 7 1/2 inches center to center of bolts, not much different from a 2 inch stock lift shackle.
Most people have the long shackles up front hanging down low. Mine are at the rear
of the front spring instead of the front. Not much different in my book for a visual difference.
John
First off, the rear of the spring did not go down 1" from stock, it went down 5". The upper mounting hole is the stock location, and that is your reference point.
Secondly, the fact that the front of the spring went up 1.5" makes things even worse.
A spring that was relatively level in stock position is now 6.5" downward at the rear. You add the 5"+1.5", that's how you do the math on figuring out the suspension. Get the stock 4" shackle length out of your head as that has nothing to do with the calculations.
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That looks about right.
Maybe I should just get 6 inch springs?
6" springs?
And I hesitate to ask this, but looking at the last picture you posted. That front reciever hitch, is there any sort of reinforement behind it that ties it to the frame rails? What do you use that for?
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[Running a weld down the front? That bracket needs to be attached to the frame not welded to the tin bumper.
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It is still jarring after I installed the kit. What did improve was the wondering. From what your and others are telling me, I will gain a lot of ride quality if I remove the track bars front and back. I haven't had the time to take them off yet to see the difference. I was going to do this last weekend but ran out of time. I will be taking them off though. Thanks for the suggestion.
Removing the track bars will not improve ride quality, it will only improve axle articulation. I would at least leave your front on.
Your wandering improved because you went from +7º caster to around +12º (numbers are estimates). It's going to be a lot harder on your steering as it takes more effort to turn, the steering has a lot more tendency to return to center than it had before.
Really, don't take any of this personal, but these forums are a learning experience for many and we don't want others to make the mistakes you have. You'd be surprised how many search engines will lead jeepers here when they search "shackle reversal" and other key words, not to mention the membership here.
Luckily you haven't cut or welded anything that makes going back to the leading shackle setup impossible. I'd seriously take that SRS off and cut your losses before you hose your steering, ujoints, balljoints, pinion bearings, transfer case bearings, etc.
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The receiver hitch is only for a basket for the front and rated for only 300-400lbs. It was an add on to carry my diamond plate box for storage for fishing. Yes I plan to beef it up and support it a little better.
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Draw an imaginary line between the spring bolts, nothing looks wrong to you? The deviation from level is how much you changed your pinion angle and caster angle.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/IMG_0103.jpg)
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On the stock set up there were shackles up front in the equation. After the SRS was installed they were on the rear of the front spring so there are still in the equation. Moving a 4" stock shackle from the front of the spring to a 5" arm /shackle to the rear would be a difference of 1" right??????
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NO, forget the stock shackle. Your reference points before and after the lift are the spring eyes at the end of the spring.
The front spring eye moved up 1.5" (okay, here you don't forget the stock shackle, you use it as a reference compared to the frame hanger that goes in its place, THEN YOU FORGET ABOUT THE STOCK SHACKLE).
The rear spring eye moved down 5".
That's it, as simple as it gets.
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Draw an imaginary line between the spring bolts, nothing looks wrong to you? The deviation from level is how much you changed your pinion angle and caster angle
OK, but wouldn't that imaginary line, in proportion, be the same if you added 2"
lift shackles to the front of the spring in a stock set up???
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So your saying...
my front spring eye mounted by stock methods was originally 6" off the frame and now its 4 1/2 inches of the frame. A difference of 1 1/2 inches closer or 1.5" higher
The rear spring eye mounted by stock methods was originally 2" off the frame and now it's 7" off the frame for a difference of 5 inches.
Now draw a line in between the spring eyes and compare the stock set up and the SRS system setup and this would be the difference???
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I think this should clarify the points by others; look at the line between the spring eyes in your Jeep and mine; the angles are completely different, and this causes all the problems that the others are mentioning (and to this, you have to add the position of the shackle mentioned previously). The difference in the angles is the problems (and I should point out that my angles are still out of whack, which means I get vibrations on the front at high speed from the angle difference; you would not notice this unless you used 4WD because you have the 2 piece front axle).
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC02421-1.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/IMG_0103.jpg)
And like others have stated, our intention is not to mock or to say that you Jeep is junk; rather, our intention is to make sure you have a vehicle that is safe and that you will enjoy for many years to come...
Felipe
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Removing the track bars will not improve ride quality, it will only improve axle articulation. I would at least leave your front on.
Well, actually it will improve the ride since it allows the suspension to move/articulate.
Although with a SRS, it's supposed to soften the ride so it might be too soft if the trackbar is removed. Then again those are some stiff looking leafs. I'd remove it and drive around the block or so and see how it feels. Punch the brakes a few times to see if there is a lot of bumpsteer...
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I just want to say that i like discussing the pros and cons of what i did wrong as long as it's done without bashing one another. I welcome the chance to improve on a design and take constructive criticism and I welcome "Friendly" honest debate/opinions
I guess the object is to keep your angle as flat as possible. I could use a through bolt pattern 5/8 shackle style bracket and use two bolts to secure it to the front of the frame. This way I could lower the front of the spring eye a bit and shorten the length of the shackle in the rear. This way it would be through bolted up front with two bolts and through bolted in the rear with a true shackle like the rear axle shackle as well as flatten out the axle angle.
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Yes, if you could safely extend the solid spring hanger at the front and shorten the shackle, your suspension and steering geometry will greatly improve.
If it were me, I'd remove it all together. SRS's aren't all they're cracked up to be, especially a poorly designed one. I still can't believe they market those.
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Let me ask another question...
Could I shim the leaf packs to rotate the axle and straighten out
the angle up front. I did this on the rear and used 4Deg shims to help out.
I still have an extra pair I could use if it would help.
I guess this would be another option instead or remounting the perches.
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Let me ask another question...
If I were to shim the leaf packs to rotate the axle and straighten out
the angle up front. I did this on the rear and used 4Deg shims to help out.
I still have an extra pair I could use if it would help.
I guess this would be another option instead or remounting the perches.
Possibly, but I think it would take a bunch more than 4 degrees. Get a cheap angle finder, and see where you are at.
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I know they make 4 / 7 / 8 deg shims.
I'm not claiming to get it back to stock but it has got to help.
And like I said, I have an extra pair of 4 deg shims in the garage laying around.
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Did you initially install the SRS to make the ride more smooth? This is a common misconception about the SRS and is generally only a bandaid fix. A proper fix would be a smoother rate spring and/or better shocks.
Most YJ lift kits are designed to maintain their lift even with a heavy 6cyl engine, that creates a stiff ride for us 4banger owners.
I wouldn't botch it up any worse by adding shims, that mistake of a kit should really come off (mistake by design, not your fault).
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Don't forget the longer center pin. Make sure they are steel ones not AL. Shims are not what you want if you can avoid them.
If it were mine I would take off the rear spring hanger and drill the frame and put in a crush sleeve and run the top shackle bolt thru the frame. Then you would have a better angle for the spring and can move the hole so you have the proper angle on the shackle. But then again I am not a fan of the SR so I don't and won't run one.
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Did you initially install the SRS to make the ride more smooth? This is a common misconception about the SRS and is generally only a band aid fix. A proper fix would be a smoother rate spring and/or better shocks.
Yes, I wanted a smoother ride quality not additional height. That's why I added a 4" suspension lift for the tires. The SRS was for ride quality.
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Most YJ lift kits are designed to maintain their lift even with a heavy 6cyl engine, that creates a stiff ride for us 4banger owners.
When I ordered the springs, they asked if I had a 4 or 6cyl jeep. I assumed it was for the proper spring rate for the different weights of the Jeeps. I could be wrong.
I could still salvage the parts in this kit, follow me and give me your opinion....
Excuse the crude drawing
If I retained the SRS bolt on bracket up front and then mounted the 5" SRS shackle arm to it up front, it would be the equivalent of a 2" shackle lift and putting the moving shackle back up front while mounting the rear spring eye back to it's original position.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/SRSSuspension002.jpg)
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I understand what you're saying, and that's the equivalent of a 4" longer than stock shackle at the front end of the spring. The combination you suggest is a lot of side-to-side leverage on the shackle hanger welded to the bottom of the frame, especially without the cross-bracing common to most SRS kits.
This would also give 2" additional height to the 4" springs, not to mention decreasing caster and pinion angle. Those lift springs are designed for stock shackles in order to achieve the proper caster and pinion angle. Any deviation and things get messed up, especially by an increase of 4" at one end.
From the looks of it you don't need any more lift, so I wouldn't try to salvage parts from this poorly designed kit just for the sake of putting them to use.
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Even though the pinion angles got screwed up severely, the kit only lifted the jeep 1" over the 4"s after the suspension lift was installed. If the SRS bracket was kept, I welded a support bar in between the brackets, made shackles that were 3"s center to center, that would be only an addition of 2"s over stock ( 3"s up front and 1" in the rear ) for a total of 1" of lift over stock giving me a grand total of 5 inches of lift. That would only put the suspension and pinion angles 2"s out of whack I could also drill and sleeve the frame for the rear spring eye and move the mounting bolt slightly forward so it's already pointing rearward for the smoother quality ride? Is this what is expected if I wanted to keep the SRS?
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If it were me, I'd ditch the craptastic SRS and look for some smoother riding shocks. I'm done here.
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I hear you and agree with you.
I want to ask questions and find answers for my understanding. Isn't that what you said this site is all about. I see that your very opinionated about the use of shackle reversal kits. There are benefits and drawbacks to every mod that you preform. I use my 4 wheel drive LESS then 1% of the time. Pinion angles are important to me as well as wear and tear and vibrations but knowing all the different cause and effects, I can make a decision based on what compromises I'm willing to live with. Not by what someone else tells me. I could ask 4 different professional off road mechanics about SR kits and get 4 different answers. Who do I believe? I like to think, discuss, imagine and challenge ideas. Not for the sake of arguing but for me to learn and others that are reading, so that we might be able to get into a tech discussion about the pros and cons of all aspects of a products design. Maybe just maybe by people discussing and challenging ideas we could come across some ideas that we did not think of or bring to light different design applications and make them better.
When upgrading my suspension I did ask a lot of questions like spring rate, what the kit included and the benefits of the different parts in the kit. I was told that there were different spring rates for the 4cyl and the 6cyl Jeeps due to the extra weight. I asked questions and learned about the benefits and drawbacks of the T-Case drop kit, brake line relocation brackets, bump stops, track bar drop brackets, longer pitman arm, sway bar drop brackets, shims, and YES new Hawthorn Hydro 8000 series shocks ( not the nitro shocks for the 4cyl / too stiff ) with all new bushings and hardware. All of these parts were included in my kit. I also upgraded and purchased longer SS brake lines and a new steering stabilizer. They were extras.
Just adding a suspension lift will change geometry, characteristics, and handling which are all give and take changes that we have to be able to live with.
So why the attitude? I'm done here!!! What's that ???????
If you don't want to discuss the topic, I guess it's OK but I do value your knowledge. I just want to come to the conclusion BASED on knowledge not opinions. We as a group have to figure the facts out. This is after all Technical Forums / The Work Bench / forum.
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I'm exhausted by your tireless effort to salvage this worthless kit. That is all. Nothing more to it.
YJ's don't ride very well to begin with. Then you add stiff springs and slap on a band-aid to try to remedy that stiffness.
It's pointed out that the kit is poorly designed for any use, onroad or off, and you want to slap more parts onto the kit in order to justify keeping it.
It's exhausting.
Here's the accepted method of mounting the shackles in a SRS setup. Disregard the angle of the shackles as there is no weight on the springs.
(http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/projects/jeeptherapy/suspension/susp8.jpg)
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I hear you again and agree.
It's just when someone is opinionated about a product or mod, and they are biased about it's usefulness, it's hard to get facts. I was looking for functional answers and in between your opinions you gave me some very useful principals and theories. I now understand much better how the pinion angels are effected by the shackle reversal kit. It hasn't effected me yet because I haven't used my 4 wheel drive since I've installed it. I would like to keep the benefits of the kit without the bad pinion angles. I drew 15 different diagrams to better understand what you were trying to get across to my thick head and have a much better understanding of how the whole thing works. That was MY goal! Nothing more nothing less. I guess most members are used to other posters asking questions and wanting quick answers on how to fix minor problems without fulfilling understanding how the whole system works and how it effects each other. Thanks Bounty Hunter for bearing with me. Again your knowledge is appreciated.
The parts that were used are of good quality just used in a poor design. I was trying to use the parts in a redesigned way so I could keep my shackle reversal kit and it's benefits and getting the pinion angles as close to stock as possible. With as little as I use the 4wheel drive system. Some of a pinion angle will be more than acceptable and I could accept more of an angle than most due to my very low use. I also wanted to point out that there is another bolt in the bracket that holds the two spring eye brackets that was not pictured, in addition to the bushing bolt. The third bolt in the bumper was left out until I can get new non torx head bolts to go in it's place.
I don't understand how the whole track bar works and I'm going off everyone's opinions about it's usefulness and effects on weather I need it at all. I did take the front one off last night and it seems to like to dip on the front corners and dive a little more in turns but other than that I haven't seen too much of a difference as of yet. Some info would be great and would bring to light some of the cause and effects on it's usage.
*** Please bear with my questions.***
Thanks, John
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I also wanted to point out that there is another bolt in the bracket that holds the two spring eye brackets that was not pictured, in addition to the bushing bolt. The third bolt in the bumper was left out until I can get new non torx head bolts to go in it's place.
Thanks, John
Here is another thing that you don't understand yet. The missing bolt holds most of the load and keeps you from breaking the little bolt in the back. The big bolt that goes side to side is passing through a bushing - which means that as force is applied to the bracket the bushing will want to make it move. The combination of the front and rear bolt keep that movement from occurring. It's another shortcut - they should have provided a solid bushing if they wanted to utilize that hole. Make sure you get the front bolts back in sooner than later.
The frustrating part of your "questions" is that you don't know anything about the basics of the way the suspension works, yet you continued to defend what you don't understand. I understand that a lot of people think that because a big company sells a product, that it is safe or a good design. Sadly that isn't true, especially as relates to anything that "bolts on" a jeep. A great example of this is the crop of scary TJ cage kits on the market.
Your quest for learning is a good one - next time you might want to ask the questions before you buy and install.
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I am no expert, but let me take a shot at the track bars...
The intention of the trackbars is to keep the lateral movement of the spring packs under check (so that they can move freely forward and backward as they compress, but they dont bend sideways). In the front, the trackbar also keeps the geometry of the steering, since, as the suspension compresses, the distance between the pitman arm and the steering linkage changes.
Speaking from personal experience, on a YJ, you can remove the rear trackbar with minimal side-effects. In fact, my RE lift kit instructed me to remove it, and to be honest, I have not felt ANY difference in handling.
In the front, the story is a bit different; if you remove it, as you slam on the brakes, the front will dip, and the steering geometry will change, causing the Jeep to turn. This is a result of the distance from the pitman arm to the steering linkage being reduced as the front of the Jeep dips, which in turn causes drag link to push the tire (and through the tie rod, the other tire as well) in one direction (cant remember which one). This means that when you hit a bump, the Jeep will try to turn as the suspension compreses and then correct to the opposite side as it bounces up.
(If I am mistaken in my explanation, someone please let me know!).
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That sounds like a good explaination, and to reiterate another thing that was already said - a shackle reversal makes brake dive worse and bump steer better because the mobile end of the spring now moves back under compression instead of forward.
Here's a great arcticle that a friend of mine wrote that has a bunch of pictures
http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=260281
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I am no expert, but let me take a shot at the track bars...
The intention of the trackbars is to keep the lateral movement of the spring packs under check (so that they can move freely forward and backward as they compress, but they dont bend sideways). In the front, the trackbar also keeps the geometry of the steering, since, as the suspension compresses, the distance between the pitman arm and the steering linkage changes.
Actually, the reason for the track bar was to stiffen the suspension so it moves very little. Go back a few years to '80, I think. Jeep got a lot of flack from the show '60 Minutes' when they did a segment on Jeeps and how easy they are to roll over. (this data was not 100% accurate.) This was pretty big back then and stuck to Jeep for many years. This why the frame was widened as well as the wheel track and the suspension was stiffened with the track bars. The shift towards safer trucks/SUV's has begun.
Also keep in mind that a stock YJ shouldn't have any bump steer when stock and new even without the track bar. You only start making problems when you lift the Jeep. Still, when most people lift their Jeeps they are also increasing the spring rate. So if you have stiff leaf springs AND a track bar, you suspension probably rarely moves. Now go with a SOA on old stock leafs and bad steering geometry and you get problems. Problems that were masked by the track bar.
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That's right. The track bar is in fact put there to force lateral movement in the leaf springs (just enough to prevent bump steer if properly designed). Since leaf springs are not designed to bend lateraly, they bind and are unable to move freely. This makes the suspension very stiff. SUA and no track bar works well, virtually no bump steer.
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I hear you again and agree.
I now understand much better how the pinion angels are effected by the shackle reversal kit. It hasn't effected me yet because I haven't used my 4 wheel drive since I've installed it. I would like to keep the benefits of the kit without the bad pinion angles.
I was trying to use the parts in a redesigned way so I could keep my shackle reversal kit and it's benefits and getting the pinion angles as close to stock as possible. With as little as I use the 4wheel drive system. Some of a pinion angle will be more than acceptable and I could accept more of an angle than most due to my very low use.
I disagree. Your jeep could be 2wd for all it matters. The pinion angle is a simple reference point on caster. If the pinion angle is at the stock position, then we know caster is at the stock setting as well. You steer all the time, onroad or off, so the angle of the axle is still very important.
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I disagree. Your jeep could be 2wd for all it matters. The pinion angle is a simple reference point on caster. If the pinion angle is at the stock position, then we know caster is at the stock setting as well. You steer all the time, on road or off, so the angle of the axle is still very important.
I was referring to my front diff and pinion and how it attaches to the front drive shaft and then to the T-Case, not steering geometry. I guess that's another can of worms I just opened.
The big bolt that goes side to side is passing through a bushing - which means that as force is applied to the bracket the bushing will want to make it move. The combination of the front and rear bolt keep that movement from occurring.
In the original set up without the SR installed, what kept the spring/spring eye from moving? Answer the welds on the sides of the brackets that are welded to the frame. With this slip over method ( which I agree is not the ideal set up ) is utilizing the original welds along with the additional threaded bolt in the thin bumper and a large nut and bolt that goes through the bracket and the original hanger as well as the bushing bolt. I do realize that as the mount gets longer there is more force put on the bolts and welds which is why it's probably even more important to have all bolts attached. Like I said it was only a short term removal until I get a chance to replace them and it will be sooner then later.
The frustrating part of your "questions" is that you don't know anything about the basics of the way the suspension works, yet you continued to defend what you don't understand.
My general opinion is that there are some redeeming quality aspects of a shackle reversal kit installation and some definite negative trade offs. I'm trying to ask questions to figure out how this kit effects everything so I can make a choice on weather to keep or scrap it based on the trade offs I'M willing to live with. Not based on the trade offs your NOT willing to live with.
As far as me having a limited knowledge and understanding of these systems, I think I have stated this several times. How do you propose I or anyone else for that matter, learn anything off this technical forum without asking " QUESTIONS " if it's too bothersome or frustrating for you to answer them, why bother? My goal, as I think most of you are aware of, is not to provoke anyone. I just enjoy the intellectual tech talk with people that share the same interests as me. And hopefully in the process while sorting out all the pros and cons on how all this stuff works, someone may learn something as well as me.
Your quest for learning is a good one - next time you might want to ask the questions before you buy and install.
I wish I had found this site earlier and had the ability to sort through this, with the patience of all the members on this site, before I bought the kit. As for this particular modification it's too late. I did what I DON'T like to do. Take someones opinions and hold them as truths. I'm trying to learn something after the fact I guess at your expense but that IS what this technical forum is all about. By no means am I defending this system. Just asking my "question" in a changeling way for all of us to learn. I realize that it's probably second nature for some of you to have the knowledge about all the different systems and how they interact with each other , but for most of us it is a very basic and limited knowledge, with a eagerness to learn.
Also thanks for your responses and input
jfrabat
Jeffy