Topic: Additional Lift on a Shackle Reversal Kit

[jonzjeepyj]

After installing my shackle reversal kit I gained  1" of lift over my 4" Suspension spring lift for a total of 5" of lift.   I added 1"lift shackles in the rear to level the Jeep.   I wanted to go a little taller and noticed the rear shackles on the shackle reversal kit for the front look Identical to a universal lowering shackle.  I know you have to lift 2 inches to gain 1 inch of lift since your are only lifting one end of the spring.  My question is...

Has anyone ever tried to use lowering shackles to gain additional height, in the front, on a shackle reversal kit? 

I went to a local parts store and they have universal lowering shackles with measurements in between center of mounting bolts of 7 1/2 inches.  My one inch lift shackles measure 6 inches in between center of bolts.  That would give me an additional 3/4 inch of lift in the front.   I could make up the difference with regular lift shackles in the rear going from 1" to 2" lift shackles.   For $39.99 I could gain an additional 3/4" of lift for the front and fabb/weld my own shackles for the rear at no cost.  Not bad in my book if it works.  What does everyone think?

Right now I'm running 33x12.5x15 Dakota AT's
I clear the 33's but want some additional height.

Thanks,  John

Rough Country Shackle Reversal Kit with new Shackles
6" From Center to Center of Bolts (1" Of Lift Over Stock)




Universal Lowering Shackles
7 1/2" From Center to Center of Bolts (1 3/4" of Lift Over Stock)

[Bounty Hunter]

It will work, but I think placing shackles into the frame spring hangers is booty-fab, usually puts the rear of the spring closer to the ground and screws up pinion angle and caster.  The best method is mounting the top of the shackle through the frame similar to how the rear shackle is attached.

How do you move the trailing end of the leaf spring downward 6" from the frame hanger, and only gain 1" of lift?  Caster and pinion angle have to be FUBAR'd.

[oldjeep]

It will work, but I think placing shackles into the frame spring hangers is booty-fab, usually puts the rear of the spring closer to the ground and screws up pinion angle and caster.  The best method is mounting the top of the shackle through the frame similar to how the rear shackle is attached.

How do you move the trailing end of the leaf spring downward 6" from the frame hanger, and only gain 1" of lift?  Caster and pinion angle have to be FUBAR'd.

x2   That kit looks like a piece of crap.  The shackles should be going through the frame.  Doing a shackle lift with a shackle reverse is a really bad idea.

[jonzjeepyj]

WoW !  It looks like a piece of crap !  Tell me how you really feel and don't sugar coat it!  I didn't move it 6" and only gain 1" of lift.  The stock shackle when mounted on the front was 4" center to center of eye bolts.  When I added a shackle reversal to the front, it didn't use the original shackles and replaced them with a one piece arm with 6" center to center of the bolts, gaining 1" overall lift up front.  I added a T-Case lowering kit and SS Brake lines also.  As for my pinion angles there are very good and will probably last quite awhile due to the type of driving I do.  Before slinging "mud" so to speak, I have seen a lot of Jeeps that I didn't like but didn't call them CRAP !  I plan on doing **NO** wheeling with this Jeep at this time!  Maybe in the future it will become a toy but for now I want it for a daily driver.  I have owned 4 different Jeeps/ F150/ Full Size Bronco/ Toyota Pickup all lifted and I beat on them pretty hard.  I have had my fun off road and wanted to drive a 4 banger Jeep to and from work for fun.  I'm not interested in articulation,  Lockers, Mud Tires and Dana 60's front and rear,  I just wanted a Good Looking Jeep (IMO) to ride around in. 

Do you know how many dully trucks that aren't used up to their potential,  3500 trucks rated for 10,500lbs of towing that tow a 3000Lb trailer or a Jeep sitting on 36's locked front and rear geared with all the goodies that sits on a trailer and gets used 6 times a year.  Almost all Jeeps set up from the factory look like crap to me and I've see several jeeps with 2 1/2 lift shackles up front that also look like CRAP. 

I wanted to add the shackle reversal to my Jeep because of all the Highway driving I do.  I drive 14 miles or 25 minutes each way to work.  THAT's why I added the SR to my Jeep.  I do appreciate  everyone's feedback and knowledge in areas that I not an expert in but if this is the way you guys want to build a web site I guess I'm not going to be a part of this.   This has really left a bad taste in my mouth.  I shouldn't feel offended by the choices I make about my Jeep   

[oldjeep]

Not calling your jeep crap, just the Rough country shackle reversal kit.  I'd be concerned about the safety of that kit on the highway.  Not connecting the 2 front bolt on brackets is a shortcut I've never seen before in a SR kit.  Using the old leaf bracket as a shackle bracket is a shortcut I've seen before, but the company I knew of that used to do it redesigned their kit.

[oldjeep]

Here's an example of a better kit, but it's still bolt on so they are mounting the shackles in a slightly better but still sub-optimal way.
http://www.bds-suspension.com/php/ShowProductInfo.php?pid=124011

[Jeffy]

Strange, I thought Rough Country used the kit made by Fly-N-High.  There were three companies Fly-N-High, Rough Country and Trail Master who used the same kit developed by FNH.  It kit used to not reuse the existing rear leafspring hanger but rather required you to grind it off then drill a few holes into the frame and sleeve them. Welding was optional. They also had a lateral support for the front which they have omitted as well.

Only a one kit out there had you drill a big hole to mount the shackle into the frame.  Most had a bracket under the frame.  And the cheaper ones reused the existing mounts.  Most of the ones that use the stock mount increase lift by 2".  Full-Traction was the first to mount shackles into the stock hangers.  The problem with that is the shackles end up hanging really far down because of the drop added to the front with the bolt-on bracket.  This really exposes the shackle to damage offroad.  M.O.R.E. is the only company that mounts the shackle into the frame.  They also sell a few bolt-on mounts like everyone else too.


It's a bad idea to add any more lift with shackles.  The main problem is that it will point your pinion down a few degrees.  It will also screw up the caster by increasing it even more which can effect steering and handling.

Really though, if you don't care about how it preforms then go ahead and add them.  You won't drive it enough worry about wear.

[oldjeep]

It's a bad idea to add any more lift with shackles.  The main problem is that it will point your pinion down a few degrees.  It will also screw up the caster by increasing it even more which can effect steering and handling.

The bigger problem if you use it offroad is how it wants to pull your front driveshaft apart.  Normally a SR will require a longer slip driveshaft, the more shackle length you add, the more the driveshaft pulls out when the front suspension is unloaded.

[Jeffy]

The bigger problem if you use it offroad is how it wants to pull your front driveshaft apart.  Normally a SR will require a longer slip driveshaft, the more shackle length you add, the more the driveshaft pulls out when the front suspension is unloaded.

14 mile commute on paved roads?  I don't think it's going to be a problem.  If he does plan on going offroad he can fix all the issues it caused later.

[oldjeep]

14 mile commute on paved roads?  I don't think it's going to be a problem.  If he does plan on going offroad he can fix all the issues it caused later.

OK, how about if he decides to take a poser picture on a yard rock? 

[jonzjeepyj]

    I'll state it again.

AT THIS TIME I PLAN ON DOING NO WHEELING OF ANY KIND!

I understand the benefits and the drawbacks of the SR and know why they added the bar in between the two front mounts.  To avoid spring wrap and to strengthen the mounting hardware.  I have weighed the pros and Cons and didn't want to spend the extra money on a better kit and drill through the frame when in the future, I will be removing the kit when it becomes a toy.  Extra holes that aren't being used will weaken the frame IMO.

I also don't see the difference from someone running longer lift shackles on the front of the spring and a SR kit with longer arms on the rear of the front spring.  2" lift shackles will run 10 inches overall and 8 inches center to center of bolts.  This looks very scary and funny IMO.  The stock shackle mounted on the front and the arm that comes with the SR kit are identical in mounting length, 4 inches center to center at bolts,  so how could this be any different.  They are just mounted on the rear of the leaf spring instead of the front.  The stock bracket that the spring mounts to up front is not through drilled and mounted.  It is welded on and mine was twisted a little.  I welded it back into place.  My kit drops the mounting bolt 1 inch on the front and gains a half inch of lift by bolting a new bracket over the existing bracket that is welded to the frame as well as the rear mounting bracket .  In this case it doesn't push the axle forward or backwards the since it's lifting it equal from front to back.

With the T-Case drop , which is not recommended for rock crawlers due to clearance issues, , does my pinion angles fine for highway driving.  In the future I will be doing things differently and adding a lot of more mods that will be more trail friendly.  As for now I want a great street riding Jeep to get me to work and back.  I have too many other hobbies and money pits.  I can't through $1000.00's of ponies at this Jeep when it intended to go up and down the highway to work.

[oldjeep]

AT THIS TIME I PLAN ON DOING NO WHEELING OF ANY KIND!

Yup, I said I wouldn't drive it on the highway like that.

I also don't see the difference from someone running longer lift shackles on the front of the spring and a SR kit with longer arms on the rear of the front spring.  2" lift shackles will run 10 inches overall and 8 inches center to center of bolts.  This looks very scary and funny IMO. 

It is scary, and anyone running shackles like that on the street should have their head examined.

The stock shackle mounted on the front and the arm that comes with the SR kit are identical in mounting length, 4 inches center to center at bolts,  so how could this be any different.  They are just mounted on the rear of the leaf spring instead of the front. 

It is different because instead of being mounted in the middle of the frame, they are cantelievered off the bottom of the frame.  I'm getting that you don't understand the forces involved, but it's much worse for it to be set up that way. 
If you swap even longer shackles in, make sure you do some hard turns on an abandoned road before driving in traffic or with anyone else in the vehicle.

[jonzjeepyj]

I may not be understanding what you are saying but I do know that the way they were mounted on the front of the stock spring were also cantilevered.  The bracket was welded to the frame and the top of the shackle cantilevered off the bracket.  It was not through bolted through the frame.  Now it's just shifted to the rear of the spring instead of the front.  The way this kit uses their brackets to bolt over the original mounting brackets makes the mounting position almost identical to the original position,  just 1 inch lower.  Neither the front nor the rear stock shackle were through frame mounted, both have brackets welded to the bottom of the frame and were cantilever mounted.

I said
running 2 inch lift shackles on the front of a stock set up would equate to a 10 inch overall shackle height that is mounted on the stock bracket that was welded to the bottom of the frame with the shackle mounting position cantilevered down 2 inches off the bottom of the frame is the same as...
a shackle reversal kit that mounts the spring perch over the existing mount that was welded to the bottom of the frame and cantilevered 2 inches off the bottom of the frame,  is now cantilevered 3 inches down off the bottom of the frame. Not much different.

The stock front shackle is 4 inches center to center and the SR shackles are identical in length, 4 inches center to center.  The difference being that now the front and the rear mounting brackets are cantilevered down 3 inches off the frame instead of 2 inches off the frame.

Quote:
It is scary, and anyone running shackles like that on the street should have their head examined.

Anyone running a stock set up with two inch lift shackles should have their head examined ??
I don't agree !

Yes their are drawbacks to every mod you do.  The effects of the drawbacks very in degree and everyone must be able to live with their effects.  There are a lot of people running 2 inch lift shackles and stuffing 33 under their Jeeps
"Look At Me With 33's"
and yes there are drawbacks as well as benefits. 

John 

[Bounty Hunter]

I never called your jeep crap, and don't think anybody else did either.  Don't take constructive criticism so personal, it boils down to nobody here wanting to see you use something dangerous.  Our intentions are sincere.

Bear with me on the suspension geometry.  The front frame mounted spring hanger is the same length as the stock shackle, so no change there.  The trailing end of the leaf spring is now moved 6" lower than it's original position.  That's 3" increase in lift, a large increase in caster, and the front pinion has to be pointed way low (toward the ground).  The only way around this is to redo the spring perches on the axle.  No way around that geometry when you lower one end of the spring 6" from stock.  That's what it boils down to.

To keep your front suspension geometry somewhat correct, your frame mounted spring hangers would need to be 6" longer than the stock shackles.  Then your leaf springs would be level, caster and pinion angle would be in check.

I don't think anybody implied your jeep is setup poorly for offroad, it appears to be setup poorly for any use (especially onroad).

[jonzjeepyj]

Thanks for your concern for my safety.  It is appreciated.  But when someone says...

Quote:
x2   That kit looks like a piece of crap.  The shackles should be going through the frame.
 
How would you take it knowing you have already installed the kit and have been driving
around on it for 3 months?

Quote:
The trailing end of the leaf spring is now moved 6" lower than it's original position.  That's 3" increase in lift

I want to make something clear,  I'm not proposing to extend the arm 6+ inches for a gain of 3+ inches of lift.
I was suggesting to go from a 6 inch shackle arm that was included in the kit, to a 7 1/2 inch shackle arm, that I would purchase, for a lift of 3/4 of an inch.

I gained 1/2 inch of lift from the brackets that bolt over the existing spring mounts and 1/2 inch from replacing the stock shackle and adding the new shackle/arm that was included in the kit.  The stock shackles were at 5 inches center to center of bolts and the new shackle arm that was included in the kit, is now 6 inches center to center of bolts.  I proposed to purchase a slightly larger shackle arm going from 6 inches to 7 3/4 inches for a lift of an additional 3/4 of an inch. 

Does that clear up what I'm proposing?  I agree that there are better ways of lifting. I wanted to smooth out the ride of my highway vehicle and didn't want to drill holes in the frame when I plan on removing the kit down the road.  I eventually want to do a SOA lift, swap axles for stronger rears and gain disc brakes in the rear along with many other upgrades in the future.  I do agree that through bolting the shackle through the frame is a much better way of bolting a SR to the frame but the stock set up did not do this and I plan on removing this in the future for more aggressive and trail worthy modifications.