Author Topic: Turbochargers  (Read 110042 times)

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Vodkaman

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #225 on: March 04, 2010, 12:41:02 PM »
I'd like to thank you for all the information you gave to me. It is the most friendly and intelligent community I've ever met. It will be an honor for me to participate in your further discussions.

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #226 on: March 04, 2010, 01:10:57 PM »
I'd like to thank you for all the information you gave to me. It is the most friendly and intelligent community I've ever met. It will be an honor for me to participate in your further discussions.

no problem. Keep us posted with your progress and maybe post some pics of your Jeep.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

Vodkaman

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #227 on: March 04, 2010, 01:33:33 PM »
I will. Now it is almost stock. Hopefully this summer I will start turbo mod.

Vodkaman

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #228 on: March 06, 2010, 01:05:09 AM »
Quote
I got with some dudes that hotrodded Neons and they helped me to work out 99% of the bugs. Immediately after install, the blower set a check engine code and would only rev to 4000 rpm. I fixed that by buying another MAP sensor, and running a vacuum line to it from the inlet side of the blower. That REALLY woke up that blower. I now have about 50000 miles and the only other issue I have is occasional detonation due to bad gas. ( I have found that some stations have 93 octane, and some stations just charge for it.) and bolts working loose.
Quote
Just read the thread: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/avenger-supercharger-2-4l-install-w-pics-358369/index4.html
Maybe someone knows this guy? It was long ago and he didn't answer, but it would be useful to find out what is "another MAP sensor" and which way it is connected to intake side of charger.

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #229 on: March 06, 2010, 01:12:12 AM »
I got with some dudes that hotrodded Neons and they helped me to work out 99% of the bugs. Immediately after install, the blower set a check engine code and would only rev to 4000 rpm. I fixed that by buying another MAP sensor, and running a vacuum line to it from the inlet side of the blower. That REALLY woke up that blower. I now have about 50000 miles and the only other issue I have is occasional detonation due to bad gas. ( I have found that some stations have 93 octane, and some stations just charge for it.) and bolts working loose.
Just read the thread: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/avenger-supercharger-2-4l-install-w-pics-358369/index4.html
Maybe someone knows this guy? It was long ago and he didn't answer, but it would be useful to find out what is "another MAP sensor" and which way it is connected to intake side of charger.

i didn't read the thread, but i'm just going to guess that he did not replace the factory 1 bar sensor - he could not read boost anyway, so to some extent would make some sense (but nowhere close to be the right way to do it)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 01:13:25 AM by sharpxmen »
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

Vodkaman

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #230 on: March 06, 2010, 01:49:50 AM »
On TJ you can not replace 1Bar MAP, you can fool it only with Split Second or other piggy back, if you are staying with stock PCM of coarse. Reading that thread I realized, that it could be a problem with my OBD II+, till now no turbo or s/c was installed on 05/06 2.4 TJ. It's a pity this guy does not answer any more.

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #231 on: March 06, 2010, 02:05:06 AM »
On TJ you can not replace 1Bar MAP, you can fool it only with Split Second or other piggy back, if you are staying with stock PCM of coarse. Reading that thread I realized, that it could be a problem with my OBD II+, till now no turbo or s/c was installed on 05/06 2.4 TJ. It's a pity this guy does not answer any more.

you can, that's what the split second unit does - it replaces the 1 bar with a 2 bar map. if you leave all the values at 10 it will work exactly like an OEM 2 bar map but it will not work correctly - read the docs on their site and the tuning guide there, there's a lot of good info in those.

It doesn't matter if it's OBD 1/2, they work the same - you have to recalibrate the absolute pressure reading to match the new range. The only problem you're having is the resulting compression ratio - that's why you need a lower AFR in boost. He mentions "occasional pinging" - that's where his mixture is off, not the pump he's buying gas from.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

Vodkaman

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #232 on: March 06, 2010, 03:15:39 AM »
Also in that thread Air Sierra says he is running turbo with out single issue from PCM side, even in Red Zone. He has bigger injectors and 93 octane gas and that's it. Air Sierra does not answers any questions any more too, and it can be understood, he probably sold his rig already, but his thread was the one which inspired me to do the same mod. Now, the more info comes to me, the more obvious it become that nothing is so easy, as one man says.
At the end, you can probably fool PCM, but you can't fool compression ratio. It is possible to swap to srt4 turbo pistons, but than it is one step left to swap to srt4 - PCM. At least you will be sure that some day your turbo engine will operate properly.

Vodkaman

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #233 on: March 06, 2010, 06:49:37 AM »
I thought of such a setup to bypass the boost off 1Bar MAP sensor. Will it work?

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #234 on: March 06, 2010, 08:48:05 AM »
I thought of such a setup to bypass the boost off 1Bar MAP sensor. Will it work?

- it will see the full boost
- that bypass valve the way you positioned it won't serve any purpose
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

st.chevrolet

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #235 on: March 06, 2010, 10:21:09 AM »
I thought of such a setup to bypass the boost off 1Bar MAP sensor. Will it work?

Sharpxmen  if I understand what he is trying to do correctly, his "bypass valve" will close completely under boost allowing the MAP to read atmospheric pressure only.

Vodkaman

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #236 on: March 06, 2010, 11:12:29 AM »
The idea was to close valve on boost and at the same moment to open small valve connected to intake part of turbine, where a little vacuum supposed to be.

Vodkaman

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #237 on: March 06, 2010, 11:31:19 AM »
Updated diagram.

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #238 on: March 06, 2010, 12:52:04 PM »
Sharpxmen  if I understand what he is trying to do correctly, his "bypass valve" will close completely under boost allowing the MAP to read atmospheric pressure only.
The idea was to close valve on boost and at the same moment to open small valve connected to intake part of turbine, where a little vacuum supposed to be.

the moment that valve starts to open you'll drop boost and will close back
one issue is how you control it

assuming you find a way with some fast switching electromagnetic valves that would open/close in sequence (not mechanically actuated as that would not work) second issue is how do you control the fuel delivery for anything over 0 pressure.
let me explain this last one (i'll simplify the numbers):
your stock map reads 0 absolute pressure to 14.7 absolute pressure (no vacuum, wide open throttle) - the voltage output is 0v to 5v (at idle you'll have something like 1.6 or close to that) - your fuel delivery is based on that range
once you do this mod and let's say you're at 6 psi max boost for a total of 20.7 psi absolute pressure - how do you compensate for the extra air between 14.7 psi and 20.7 psi - you will need more fuel and will not be a set value but progressive as the boost increases
what you need to do is to shift your map output so it will give you 1.6v at idle and 5v at 20.7psi

in reality the stock 1 bar map outputs something like 4.7v at wot

you can do it with a 2 bar map and a volt mod for the map input, but you'll also need a voltage limiter on the output of the MAP so it won't go over 5v or it will set a fault code in your PCM and possibly stop functioning until you reset the computer

the other alternative is to keep the 1 bar map and use an FMU (you'll have to determine the ratio you need)

your stock 1 bar map will only read 1 bar so potentially you can have it in the same spot as the stock one without this bypass valve you are trying to do - i had it that way and it did not damage mine but i can't guarantee you that it won't happen to yours

but regardless, your computer will most likely throw codes if you with one of these options, you will not be able to tune it properly and instead of getting 30% increase in power once you're at full boost you'll get like 10% or best case scenario if you manage to tune it for that specific range your mpg will hurt badly - for the amount of money, time and research you will put into getting it to work you'll be better of buying a piggyback from the start. As i understand this is your DD, if you mistune it you'll risk damaging the engine - if it was a drag racer then you would mostly be worried to get it right in a specific rpm range and mostly at wot which makes it lot easier, in your case you need to make sure it will function properly at all ranges. Your PCM needs to have the fuel trims in a reasonable range or it will never be able to compensate, that's what the fuel delivery table is for.

But, if you decide to go with something other than the programmable piggyback let us know your progress - i'll be interested in finding out how it goes.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

Vodkaman

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Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger?
« Reply #239 on: March 06, 2010, 02:22:38 PM »
Nothing new under the sun. The valve is suggested  already exist: http://www.synapseengineering.com/
Ml 003 Missing link - is the one for TJ.
It's not because I refuse a piggy back, it's in addition, to avoid Check Engine light at boost.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 02:25:15 PM by Vodkaman »