Topic: The dilemma: Rockcrawler v Expedition

[Jeffy]

This has been bugging me for a few years now.  It all starts with some pictures we see in a magazine or on the internet.  There is always someone with some cool new thing on their Jeep.  You start off buying larger tires, then lifts then winches, lockers, etc...  As years pass your Jeep evolves into something larger then what it once was.  The problem is when does it stop?

Now I have friends who had deeper pockets and were able to go from grocery getter to comp. rock crawler in a quick few years.  Most of them have sold off their Jeeps and have gone back to something more basic as they figured out that they made such a specialized vehicle that it's no longer fun.

I'm sort of running into that wall, and I don't even consider my Jeep that big.  The problem is I'm not doing what I thought I'd want to be doing with my Jeep.  In fact, I'm doing the opposite which in these times of high gas prices, makes for a tough decision.  To continue to build it up or reassess and change.

This is where I stand.  Most of the mods that I've been doing don't have any bearing on that decision which is good.  The problem is if I want to do anything more, I'm going to have to make a choice sooner or later.  I've been thinking that instead of making a rockcrawler, I might want to go with something more rounded like an exploration vehicle.  Something like you see with the Land Cruiser and Land Rover crowd.  Going back to something a bit more basic but finding a balance between strength and weight.  Something that will be able to drive 500-1000-2000 miles and be fairly comfortable even when those miles are all on dirt roads.  Something not too exotic so it can easily be fixed while out in the field.

Thoughts?  Crazy idea?  Oh and yes, my next set of wheels will probably be some classic looking steeles.

Pictures like these are what sways me.

[aw12345]

Well Jeffy, take it back down to 33" tires, will work well with your gearing work on the springs or maybe a bit of a stretch to get a better ride, stick a pintle hook on the back and built a nice little offroad trailer and enjoy. I don't think you need much more than that, from where you are at right now, some kind of mountaineer rack in the back helps with stacking a load in the back of the Jeep the heavy stuff low and the light stuff up on top of the rack the rest and the foldout tent in the trailer. That and maybe a radio for communication, the license is not that hard to get.
O can see your point though somewhere along the line enough is enough, my little Jeep is not getting a whole lot more mods a suck down winch in the front this weekend and an anti rock in the rear at some pint and that is it. It wheels well has done some pretty tough trails. To get any crazier on the hammers will have to wait a year till my Big Jeep is built, going to make something out of a wrecked Jeep for the tougher stuff, got a line on about 2/3's of all the parts I need to built a TJ truggy or something along those lines

[chardrc]

i kinda agree.. the rock buggy's with 40+ tires are a little too extreme for me id rather have a more realistic jeep with 33s  that is reliable and still go places...  yougotta like basic steel rims

[jfrabat]

Well, Jeffy, my opinion is a bit biased, as my Jeep was built to travel the 400 miles or so between Panama City, Panama (where the Jeep lives now) and San Jose, Costa Rica (where I now live) and back, yet still be able to run some trailes in boh countries.  Hence my decision to keep the tire size at 33" (I was VERY tempted to go to 35's, but decided against it), and try to keep weight down to the minimum, while still having some creature comforts (like AC and the stereo). 

In my case, the terrain is a bit different (it includes plenty of rive crossings, hence my need for the snorkel, for example), but overall, I am quite happy with how it came out.  I would like a roof rack (not only to carry some of the lighter stuff, but also to place some additional lighting), but given the vegetation here, it may not be that great of an idea...

In my case, the pending mods are a hand throttle (which I already got, but have yet to install), a CB amplifier (they are not illigal down here, so I'm good to go; I also have a RM KL-50 IIRC that I bought some time ago, but have yet to isntall it), and a 2M radio as well (I plan to install the antenna over the driver's side tail light, similar to AW1234's antenna setup; this one I have yet to buy, and figure out exactly what I want and where to install it).  Perhaps further down the line there is a possible axle swap, but that is not yet on the horizon...

Anyway, that's what I did, and everyone must sit down and plan their own Jeep based on what they want to do, and I applaud that you are taking the time to consider what exactly you want and build your rig based on that even though other may think it is not as "cool" as some of the other rigs...

[neale_rs]

You might consider going back to 33s and adding skid plates and gas can carriers.  This will recover and add a lot of reliability and expedition range.  After that a rack will finish it up and you don't even need that unless you will be taking people in the back seat.  I feel my Jeep (less built than yours) has done trails as extreme as I had ever envisioned, probably even a bit past that point.  So a mild build can actually do a lot on those occasions when you decide to go do some rock crawling. The 2.5 is a good expedition engine.  I've noticed that off road on several occasions that my Jeep will often use a bit less than half a tank and the 4.0 vehicles will be just above 1/4.  On road the milage may not be all that different but off road it seems to be much better with the 2.5.

[OH-YJ]

I've never saw a JK as a pickup, I like it! As for the dilemma, I would rather have an explorer with 33's than a monster rock crawler and be limited to just that.

[FourbangerYJ]

Awesome topic!
The club I am in has had some influence on the way I went with my build. Not all by any means but some. I can clearly say I am done with the big stuff. I am real happy with my project. I don't feel it's a all out rockcrawler but it does pretty good in that environment. I like the exploration part of this hobby more than the rockcrawling.
I know how you feel when it comes to friends that have gone crazy with their builds in a short time. My club is having a huge convertion to D60's and 40 inch tires. These are not budget builds by any means. Well over 25K worth of upgrades. The sad thing is they are going to be doing the same type of trails BEORE the build. I don't get it at all! I think ego plays a huge part it this whole thing.
I guess you need to figure out what type of wheeling you want to do and what else you need to do to your Jeep to accomplish this. I like the idea of KISS. I think if you added some sorta T-case gearing with lots of choices you would be set to do it ALL! Get some spare front shafts and headout to what ever type wheeling you want.

[Jeffy]

Well Jeffy, take it back down to 33" tires, will work well with your gearing work on the springs or maybe a bit of a stretch to get a better ride, stick a pintle hook on the back and built a nice little offroad trailer and enjoy. I don't think you need much more than that, from where you are at right now, some kind of mountaineer rack in the back helps with stacking a load in the back of the Jeep the heavy stuff low and the light stuff up on top of the rack the rest and the foldout tent in the trailer. That and maybe a radio for communication, the license is not that hard to get.

I've thought about a stretch but what I'd really like to do is make a YJ-Unlimited with a frame stretch but that's a big undertaking.  I'd love the extra 10" of room, while still keeping the stock overhang.  That would give me plenty of room for gear as well.

Currently I do have a roof rack but it's not on.  I think it will hold 2-300lbs, it's a Con-Ferr bolted to the hardtop.  It's plenty of space for soft stuff for sure.  I would really like to be able to use a Safari tent but I'd need to get a rack integrated to the body to support the additional weight.

As for communications, I already have that covered.  Although I should get a HF radio to go along with my 2M.

Well, Jeffy, my opinion is a bit biased, as my Jeep was built to travel the 400 miles or so between Panama City, Panama (where the Jeep lives now) and San Jose, Costa Rica (where I now live) and back, yet still be able to run some trailes in boh countries.  Hence my decision to keep the tire size at 33" (I was VERY tempted to go to 35's, but decided against it), and try to keep weight down to the minimum, while still having some creature comforts (like AC and the stereo). 

  The other idea is that with 33x10.5's I could carry two spares if I needed to.

In my case, the terrain is a bit different (it includes plenty of rive crossings, hence my need for the snorkel, for example), but overall, I am quite happy with how it came out.  I would like a roof rack (not only to carry some of the lighter stuff, but also to place some additional lighting), but given the vegetation here, it may not be that great of an idea...

I might fo a snorkel but I'd want something a bit more rugged and home-grown.

In my case, the pending mods are a hand throttle (which I already got, but have yet to install), a CB amplifier (they are not illigal down here, so I'm good to go; I also have a RM KL-50 IIRC that I bought some time ago, but have yet to isntall it), and a 2M radio as well (I plan to install the antenna over the driver's side tail light, similar to AW1234's antenna setup; this one I have yet to buy, and figure out exactly what I want and where to install it).  Perhaps further down the line there is a possible axle swap, but that is not yet on the horizon...

I don't need an amplifier with a 2M and possibly a HF later.  The 2M will easily get over a mountain and down the other side or 100 miles line-of-sight.  I have a 46" whip on the driver side rear and a 4.5' whip on the passenger side rear.

You might consider going back to 33s and adding skid plates and gas can carriers.  This will recover and add a lot of reliability and expedition range. 

I think the idea would be to eventually have an offset spare and 2 cans on the side. Or maybe just two spares.  Haven't really thought about it but two spares are common on many TLC's I've seen.  I have the option of putting some cans up top.

Awesome topic!
The club I am in has had some influence on the way I went with my build. Not all by any means but some. I can clearly say I am done with the big stuff. I am real happy with my project. I don't feel it's a all out rockcrawler but it does pretty good in that environment. I like the exploration part of this hobby more than the rockcrawling...

I guess you need to figure out what type of wheeling you want to do and what else you need to do to your Jeep to accomplish this. I like the idea of KISS. I think if you added some sorta T-case gearing with lots of choices you would be set to do it ALL! Get some spare front shafts and headout to what ever type wheeling you want.

I'm thinking mild trails like the Rubicon and some desert travel.  I would probably toss out my idea for D60's because of the additional weight and the lack of clearance and go with D44's.  Probably end up keeping my XJ D44 then converting it to disc's and 5 on 5.5".  I'd still do the Atlas 4.0, and then a D44 for the front.  I'd want hubs though so it would need to be a SJ or Bronco.  Then gear to 5.13:1 or maybe still to 5.38:1. (that should top out around 80mph) That would leave the option of being able to throw on some 35's.  Currently though, my Jeep is a daily driver all season vehicle.  Roads do flood on occasion out here and we do get black ice.  The occasional Sierra trip for snow and rocks, too.

[aw12345]

Jeffy, seems to me your axles are fine as long as you do not care to go to 5.13 or 5.38 gears, the dana30 hp is strong enough with good axle shafts, same goes for the dana44 rear some good shafts and it will take you where you want to go without worries.
For tires, go Krawlers or Pitbulls then you can easily get away with one spare or none those things are tough. For exploring, and versatility I still think a small light offroad trailer is the ticket for camping and gear. Frame stretch is pretty sweet I am going to do one of those for a friend he wants to, put a CJ6 body and engine on a stretched TJ frame. Will be a fun project

[Jeffy]

Jeffy, seems to me your axles are fine as long as you do not care to go to 5.13 or 5.38 gears, the dana30 hp is strong enough with good axle shafts, same goes for the dana44 rear some good shafts and it will take you where you want to go without worries.
For tires, go Krawlers or Pitbulls then you can easily get away with one spare or none those things are tough. For exploring, and versatility I still think a small light offroad trailer is the ticket for camping and gear. Frame stretch is pretty sweet I am going to do one of those for a friend he wants to, put a CJ6 body and engine on a stretched TJ frame. Will be a fun project

Problem is I want lower gears and manual hubs.   

I was thinking BFG KM2's 33x10.5R15's or else move to a 16" wheel and have more available.  255/85R16.

I'd love to do a frame stretch but I don't have the means.  I'd like to cut it before the rear hump so all that will be required is a straight sleeve and insert.  The body would be cut right before the raise in the floor so it wouldn't be too difficult to patch.   It would be a fun project though.  I have enough room for gear for two people which is all I need right now.

[FourbangerYJ]

There is no need to do D60's unless you want to run a tire larger than 37's. The D44's are plenty strong.

Why would you want to downsize to 33's?
Your current axles could be used but you would sink a ton of money into the D30. Unless you found a used one with lockouts.
You can find a D44 and start collecting parts as funds are avail.
Truly for the trails you want to run you have a very good set up. Gearing is the only thing you lack.

[aw12345]

That was pretty much my point, don't really see the need for locking hubs for the front though, when you want to keep it simple it adds a lot of breakable parts and unneeded complexity. To me going to go to 33's would save him the expense of regearing the axles. Also 33's are a lot easier on the drivetrain so will make for a higher degree of reliability. Overall Jeffy, your Jeep is pretty well setup for what you want, for general offroading and expeditioning you do not want a very low low range seems to me the stock transfercase or something geared like it is the ticket or one that does about a 2.7 to 1 and a 4 or 5 to 1 for the serious rock stuff, the latter gearings are a pain in the neck for anything other than rock crawling. Still think that a light offroad trailer with a foldout tent and some of the extra supplies like a small fridge and built in stove would be a hell of a nice add on

[dwtaylorpdx]

I did the locking hubs for a couple reasons,

1. Mileage, it made about a mile per gallon better.
2. Less wear on the drive train, It stops the axles and third member and transfer case output from spinning.
3. It quiets the front end down.
4. Got rid of the vacuum disconnect while I was at it.

For my part of the country , the 2.7 low range is fine on 33" tires.

Dave

[stan98tj]

i agree with you 100% jeffy. expedition vehicles are def where it's at. something along the lines of the rover's Lone Wolf Expedition vehicle or Camel Trophy. I personally would like to acheive a well balanced level with my jeep. Tires no bigger than 33", a lift with enough flex-but not too high as it's not needed (3"?) a front locker and winch would be nice. Under carriage armor and diff guards. Gear to a decent set up. A snorkel would be nice but again not needed-though many expedition vehicles carry em. Tranny  and engine reworked for the longer hauls. id prob look to relieve the engine of as much load and stress as possible-get it breathing better etc. But in the end, ya want it bigger than stock, but not so big you can only drive at a max speed of 35mph and your wheeling only consists of driving through mud fields or cawling up the grand canyon.

oh, and ya may want to check out the roof top fold out tents on the market. u could possibly fab a nice base yourself..something that can fold out and over the side of the jeep, and then you could mount a tent on top.

[Sine Deviance]

I say keep it expedition. It's always better to have something you can actually drive on the street, even if it is a mall crawler. I don't think I could personally ever build my Jeep to the point where it wasn't street legal.

Also, like others have been saying, you can actually get quite a bit of ability out of only a mild build. My Jeep is built very mildly and I plan on keeping it that way for a long time as I am quite happy with what my Jeep has to offer when offroad. Right now my goal is to increase power and restore the Jeep (there's a bunch of stuff that is aging and needs to be replaced.) All else will come only if it is necessary.

Bottom line is ... do what makes you happy, an attainable goal, and will keep you happy long-term. Rock crawlers are cool but they always seemed like a short-term toy to me. It's like people that have dune buggies out west -- what's the point of owning a machine like that if you can only drive it a couple times a year?