Author Topic: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)  (Read 5448 times)

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Offline lokitim

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4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« on: April 25, 2010, 09:34:22 AM »
I know this topic has been asked & answered, so many times.....But, mine is not working right. I have a '93 with a '95 motor, I got a TB from a '94 Cherokee. I just installed today & starts right up, though runs at 4k rpms (turned right off).  Was i suppose to use sensors from 2.5 TB, or keep the 4.0 ones on? I have read different results on this. I undertsand it takes a few minutes for ECM to recognize new part, but didn't want to run that high rpm too long. I did disconnect battery for a few minutes, how long should I really do this for to reset computer?

Thanks for your help.....
1993 YJ, 4cyl, AX15 5spd,  J20 3/4 ton axles, SOA with stock springs, disc brakes on all fours, hi-steer, flat tops,33x12.50 General Grabbers on beadlocks,Warn Front Bumper, Smittybilt w/swing away tire mount rear bumper, custom Hi-Lift Mount, Bedliner interior & body sides, Flush mount tail/backups

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 09:37:38 AM »
I know this topic has been asked & answered, so many times.....But, mine is not working right. I have a '93 with a '95 motor, I got a TB from a '94 Cherokee. I just installed today & starts right up, though runs at 4k rpms (turned right off).  Was i suppose to use sensors from 2.5 TB, or keep the 4.0 ones on? I have read different results on this. I undertsand it takes a few minutes for ECM to recognize new part, but didn't want to run that high rpm too long. I did disconnect battery for a few minutes, how long should I really do this for to reset computer?

Thanks for your help.....

you need to transfer everything from your 2.5L t/b - the IAC valve and housing (don't forget this one) and the throttle position sensor. Once you do that your engine will work properly.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

Offline oldjeep

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 09:56:51 AM »
You will get a lot more bang for your buck if you bore out the intake manifold to match the TB opening.  I've been amazed at the power difference (I am running a 4.0L TB that was bored out even more than normal)
Chuck P
The clowns'? Oh, yeah, the clowns. We fight them too — entire armies, spilling out of Volkswagons. We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending 'em in!
94 YJ - gone
98 ZJ - sons truck
97 TJ - daughters project

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firebrick43

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2010, 10:44:44 AM »
As previously mentioned, change the IAS housing and motor.   The butterfly on these throttle bodies close completely at idle.  There is a bypass passage above/below the butterfly that allows idle air around the butterfly at idle.  The 2.5 housing has a smaller hole(to allow less air) than the 4.0 and the plunger on the IAS for the 2.5 is smaller to match this hole.  Using a 2.5L IAS in a 4.0 housing will not work because the plunger cannot seal the larger hole effectively.  This housing has Security torqx fasteners so you will need a special bit for them, if I remember correctly its T20 size.  The security torqx have a little teat in the center so the bit will have to have a small hole in the end of it. 

Some one dynoed the results of different combinations here a while back and there is a major difference if you bore out the intake manifold to match the throttle body. 

I personally would recommend using a die grinder with a carbide bit to do the roughing out and using a sanding drum to polish it.  I also recommend pulling the intake manifold off the vehicle to do so as it would be hard to keep all the aluminum from going through the engine even if you stuff rags down there.  I laid a new tb gasket on top of the manifold, aligning it with the holes and then using a magic marker mark the inside diameter of the gasket onto the manifold.  Grind out to that mark, beveling and smoothing everything back to the runners. 

Also if you have it off you can pull the injectors and smooth/bevel the intake runners where they meet the head as mine did not match the intake ports at all.  you will see where the gasket doesn't touch around the inside perimeter of the runners. 

My throttle position sensor was a real pain to remove and would recommend squirting it with a good penitrant(not wd 40) and even a little heat from a small butane torch on the housing where the screws enter(be carefull, don't over heat. 

My 91 has a MAP sensor on the fire wall so I removed the one mounted on the 4.0 throttle body and capped the nipple off.  I think yours should be on the throttle body however(not positive)

My results were significant.  I live on the windy plains of Indiana, where they have the largest wind farm in the US. 
Before the head winds would keep me at 50-55 almost full throttle.  Now I have plenty of power, have even caught myself speeding at 65 in the head winds without even feeling it.  My MPGs have improved 1-2mpg as well.  Last tank I got was at 23mpg. 

While your at it I highly recommend removing the exhaust manifold, checking for cracks or missing/broke bolts and installing a felpro full intake/exhaust manifold gasket.  Its available at napa.  It will seal the exhaust manifold better and insure that your O2 sensor is not getting a lean signal from an air leak.  The bolts/nut(remember to use a nickle or copper based anti seize) should be torqued to 23ft lbs starting in the center and working your way out evenly.  Most important thing to keep from loosing bolts from the manifold is to go back and retorque those bolts/nuts after a few heat/cool cycles.  I did require a crowsfoot to torque the front nut by the power steering mount but a dog bone would have been better.  Remember when using a dog bone or crowsfoot that it most be oriented 90 degrees to the torque wrench to get a correct torque.  Orienting it straight out will lower the torque.  There are calculators out there that calculate the actual torque at the fastener based on the length of the dogbone/crowsfoot so you can set the torque wrench correctly to take this into account if you cant set it at 90 degrees

Offline lokitim

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2010, 01:05:05 PM »
Thanks all, changed sensors & now all is good!!   Will open intake manifold at a later date.....don't have tools right now.
1993 YJ, 4cyl, AX15 5spd,  J20 3/4 ton axles, SOA with stock springs, disc brakes on all fours, hi-steer, flat tops,33x12.50 General Grabbers on beadlocks,Warn Front Bumper, Smittybilt w/swing away tire mount rear bumper, custom Hi-Lift Mount, Bedliner interior & body sides, Flush mount tail/backups

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2010, 01:11:24 PM »
Some one dynoed the results of different combinations here a while back and there is a major difference if you bore out the intake manifold to match the throttle body. 

for the 4.0L t/b you don't need to enlarge the intake opening (it's big enough) - at least that's what it was on my '95 YJ and other intakes I looked at. the stock 4.0L t/b is tapered on the bottom to something like 56mm (it is about 60mm up top).

if you have a 62mm then yes, you need to enlarge it to take full advantage on it.

My 91 has a MAP sensor on the fire wall so I removed the one mounted on the 4.0 throttle body and capped the nipple off.  I think yours should be on the throttle body however(not positive)

all the YJs had the MAP on the firewall as far as i know, my 1995 was on the firewall as well
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

firebrick43

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2010, 01:41:16 PM »
My 91 was to small for the throttle body.  They are cast so maybe core shift or core size has something to do with it.  At work its amazing the differences in castings when they come in rough from the foundry.  Some features can be off by 2mm or more between castings poured in succession. 

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2010, 02:37:37 PM »
My 91 was to small for the throttle body.  They are cast so maybe core shift or core size has something to do with it.  At work its amazing the differences in castings when they come in rough from the foundry.  Some features can be off by 2mm or more between castings poured in succession. 

i was wondering if i was wrong or something since i saw that oldjeep said the same thing. I remember that on my intake there was no need to bore out. I have an intake from a '94 in the garage, so i measured it: it is 54.90 mm in diameter. I measured a 4.0L t/b and it is 55.50 mm,
so that would create a 0.30 mm lip around the bottom of t/b - that is 0.055'' or somewhere more than 3/64 and less than 1/16 - pretty small difference but there would be a lip there in this case. Could be what you say though as the one on the Jeep was at least the same size (or maybe the t/b was a bit smaller).
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

Offline Jeffy

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 03:00:22 PM »
i was wondering if i was wrong or something since i saw that oldjeep said the same thing. I remember that on my intake there was no need to bore out. I have an intake from a '94 in the garage, so i measured it: it is 54.90 mm in diameter. I measured a 4.0L t/b and it is 55.50 mm,
so that would create a 0.30 mm lip around the bottom of t/b - that is 0.055'' or somewhere more than 3/64 and less than 1/16 - pretty small difference but there would be a lip there in this case. Could be what you say though as the one on the Jeep was at least the same size (or maybe the t/b was a bit smaller).
Minimal difference.  There will also be a gap where the gasket is since the gasket opening is much larger.



You can see the carbon/oil/goo ring marking where the gasket was.

In order: Stock 4.0L/ 64mm / 2.5L
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 03:02:55 PM by Jeffy »
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Torch_Ind

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2010, 03:03:29 PM »
I bored mine out to 64mm also. both tb and intake

firebrick43

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2010, 03:40:11 PM »
Evidently there are differences in the manifolds.  My 91 manifold did not that that ridge on the bottom either but was flat on the floor of the interior of the manifold.  Even if there is only a small sharp edge of 1/16 it can cause quite a turbulence in airflow.  Turbulence helps with low speed torque (which isn't lacking with the 2.5 throttle body) but hurts in high speed horsepower which is what we are trying to help. 

Torch_Ind

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2010, 04:24:17 PM »



this is off two different yj's 4 cylinders 

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2010, 04:31:46 PM »
Evidently there are differences in the manifolds.  My 91 manifold did not that that ridge on the bottom either but was flat on the floor of the interior of the manifold.  Even if there is only a small sharp edge of 1/16 it can cause quite a turbulence in airflow.  Turbulence helps with low speed torque (which isn't lacking with the 2.5 throttle body) but hurts in high speed horsepower which is what we are trying to help. 

you're right, better without the lip sticking out - less restrictions, better flow.

i think your manifold is probably an older style.




this is off two different yj's 4 cylinders 

never seen that left side before - seems a better choice - the one on the right is what i have, the portion right under the seat is rounded nicely towards the intake runs, how's the other one in that respect?
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

aerotech

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2010, 04:38:15 PM »
I have been reading alot about 4.0 tb upgrade but thought the intake was the only opening to be enlarged. Do both the intake and lower tb opening need to be enlarged to 64mm??

Offline Jeffy

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Re: 4.0 tb conversion?....(sorry)
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2010, 04:53:16 PM »
you're right, better without the lip sticking out - less restrictions, better flow.

i think your manifold is probably an older style.

never seen that left side before - seems a better choice - the one on the right is what i have, the portion right under the seat is rounded nicely towards the intake runs, how's the other one in that respect?
'91 must be a year into itself as mine is a '92 (built in Nov '91).  I'm going to guess the one that's not square at the TB is a late model. '95.
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZNlr60GXH5OlKIFrT7P6mg
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"If the motor car were invented today, there is absolutely no way that any government in the world would let normal members of the public drive one."