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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Jeffy on November 09, 2011, 11:38:32 AM
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Well, I've got a strange noise that I can't put my finger on just yet. I think it's the axle and not the engine though I'm not 100%. It doesn't start happening until the engine's warmed up. If I lug the engine a little it seems to happen. If I shift into neutral, it stops. It sounds like a faint metal on metal sound squeak, like brakes. I don't think anything is caught in the brakes though. They seem to be working fine. The sound seems to be coming from the right front. These is a thunk when I hit bumps hard but I'm not sure if that's my tie-rod or swaybar doing that. Although I don't hear a think when I try to cycle the suspension when parked. Might not be putting enough weight into it. I did a left had sweeper today and it seems to make the noise but I'll have to try it again to make sure. I did jack up the wheel and rotated it and tried to rock it side to side and top to bottom. It only moved very slightly. Actually both sides move a few mm's if rocked. I don't have a dial indicator though. I've got to try rotating the wheel while pushing and then pulling to see if it makes noise. I have a guess of what it might be but it's not humming like what most people have.
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Maybe the CAD shift fork is wearing out.
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Well, I check the wheel out and I did find a problem. The lower shock bushing was gone. Now I'm not sure if this was making all of the noise or not. I didn't feel any bumps when I was turning the wheel by hand. So I 'think' the hub bearings are OK.
My shocks don't extend on their own like I remember BUT they do still seem to pass the jumping on the bumper test. They're supposed to extend on their own a bit, right? It's been a while since I've working on shocks.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BB30eyGjSi8/Trr7FHFDLnI/AAAAAAAAdy8/XhVHPDa3Bpo/s576/11%2B-%2B1)
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They're supposed to extend on their own a bit, right?
only if they're Nitro shocks (if they have a pressurized gas chamber), regular shocks won't. Put a bolt thu the bushing, put your feet on it and push-pull the entire travel length - if it skips then you need a new one, if it holds constantly the entire time in/out then you're fine.
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only if they're Nitro shocks (if they have a pressurized gas chamber), regular shocks won't. Put a bolt thu the bushing, put your feet on it and push-pull the entire travel length - if it skips then you need a new one, if it holds constantly the entire time in/out then you're fine.
I forget if they're nitro or hydro. They're old Trailmaster shocks. They hold constant though. I bought a new bushing for it. A whole $7. I want to eventually swap them out for 5100 or 5150's but I'm holding off. Was thinking about going with Ford mounts but I don't think I really need them anymore.
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I forget if they're nitro or hydro. They're old Trailmaster shocks. They hold constant though. I bought a new bushing for it. A whole $7. I want to eventually swap them out for 5100 or 5150's but I'm holding off. Was thinking about going with Ford mounts but I don't think I really need them anymore.
5150's are nice
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I bought a new bushing for it. A whole $7.
that's a lot, a new shock with poly bushings is like $40 or so but i guess it's cheaper than buying a pair.
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that's a lot, a new shock with poly bushings is like $40 or so but i guess it's cheaper than buying a pair.
Well, I get two bushings! :fya:
I'll save up for shocks later. I noticed the front end is really soft with my SOA and no shock.
As for the noise. the banging is gone but I have this other noise I can't put a finger on. Sounds like if you went sssssssssss. Happens when I lug the engine a bit. I can't ear it otherwise. I'm wondering if it's a PS high-pressure line leak or something. I've noticed some fluid on my high-pressure line BUT it's very slight. Takes a while to build up any oil on it. Not sure if that's the problem though either. I tightened the belt a bit more so it's not slipping. But like I said, it seems to go away if I drop it into neutral.
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I would think it is not the PS system, if the sound goes away when you drop into neutral. If the sound the sound follows the engine speed, it might be worth another look at it.
Seems like a rough year for our rigs. Good luck.
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As for the noise. the banging is gone but I have this other noise I can't put a finger on. Sounds like if you went sssssssssss. Happens when I lug the engine a bit. I can't ear it otherwise. I'm wondering if it's a PS high-pressure line leak or something. I've noticed some fluid on my high-pressure line BUT it's very slight. Takes a while to build up any oil on it. Not sure if that's the problem though either. I tightened the belt a bit more so it's not slipping. But like I said, it seems to go away if I drop it into neutral.
No bearings going out on any of the pulleys? I had a odd hissing/sqweal periodically on my old 94 S10. Turned out to be a pulley bearing on the A/C compressor. You could only really hear it when a certain RPM. Using a mechanic's stethoscope may prove very useful in anycase (that's how my bearing was pinpointed). Only $5-7 if you don't have one.
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Yea, I have an annoying noise in my TJ from time to time but it seems to disappear when I leave my wife at home. :stick:
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Yea, I have an annoying noise in my TJ from time to time but it seems to disappear when I leave my wife at home. :stick:
:drink:
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Maybe the CAD shift fork is wearing out.
I don't think so since it's intermittent and seems to go away when not under power.
No bearings going out on any of the pulleys? I had a odd hissing/sqweal periodically on my old 94 S10. Turned out to be a pulley bearing on the A/C compressor. You could only really hear it when a certain RPM. Using a mechanic's stethoscope may prove very useful in anycase (that's how my bearing was pinpointed). Only $5-7 if you don't have one.
It's not RPM dependant though. I replaced the idler and checked the others before when I had the Alternator bearing go out. Also, it doesn't make noise when in neutral and reving. Has to be under load.
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Also, it doesn't make noise when in neutral and reving. Has to be under load.
So at idle under load? Idle neutral vs. idle in D or R would be a hair different RPM. Either way, I'd poke at it with one of those sticks (mechanic's stethoscope). :stick: A lot of times it will amplify a noise you can't normally hear or under only certain conditions. Drivetrain noises are a lot more tricky.
My work's/school's (I work at a college) automative department has the wireless electronic kind that I used back on my old YJ to isolate bearing failures. It's a more expensive option if you don't know anywhere to borrow one. I keep stairing at it as one of those wants, but don't needs. Really helps if you get OCD finding squeaks and sounds (like me.) http://www.amazon.com/Steelman-STE97202-Wireless-Chassis-Ear/dp/B00123J79O
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ucP5I515L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
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Mechanic's Stethoscope only $2 at Harbor Freight right now.
http://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics-stethoscope-41966.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=4511b&utm_source=1002
(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_18203.jpg)
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Everybody look what's going down? Sorry had to do it, great song :smokes:
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Well, it's doesn't happen at idle. Only when moving and only when under a load of some sort. I think it's makes more noise when I do a hard sweeping left. My guess is that it's a hub bearing but it didn't feel like it when I was testing it. I can hear it come and go as the suspension cycles. I do have a bearing noise at high speeds but I think it's my front U-joint. I should jsut disconnect the driveshaft and see if that changes anything.
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Everybody look what's going down? Sorry had to do it, great song :smokes:
thats all I could think of to lol! :thumb: :roflol:
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Everybody look what's going down? Sorry had to do it, great song :smokes:
:fya:
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Ok, I checked the brakes and it doesn't seem to be them. I used some left foot braking so I could keep the Jeep moving and the sound didn't change.
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Well, I did some more checking and it's actually not from the front. It's from the mid-back. I spun the rear tire and it felt OK. Although it is using an original XJ bearing from, I think '89. Replaced the driver side with a Timken when I rebuilt it. I thought it was the front probably because the front shock bushing was toast and it seemed to coincide with the weight shift. Now that I have it fixed, it's changed when it does it a little. I want to disconnect my front driveshaft and make sure it's not the transfer case that's making noise. With the LSD up front, the chain is always turning. I also thought maybe it's the exhaust. Seems to go away when the Jeep is running smooth. Ie, not lugging the engine.
The noise is bugging me but I think it's been there for a while now. I've just started to pay attention to it recently
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Took the rear tires off and checked the axles. The pass. has a little more play in and out but not by much. It's still only a few mm's. I did notice a little seeping at the seal but it's stopped. I didn't notice any rough spots while turning them. Brakes look OK as well.
I've also noticed the noise only happens once the Jeeps warmed up. I can't hear it from my side when I have the window down but I can hear it through the pass, side window up or down.
Didn't get a change to take the front DS off though. It's gonna be raining for a while so I won't get a chance. So far, I'm thinking it's an exhaust leak in the pipe. (bolt-on exhaust) Or maybe the axle bearing is squeaking but not enough to be noticable bad.
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In the words of Ron White... "Woo, that's an elusive little creature!"
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In the words of Ron White... "Woo, that's an elusive little creature!"
Yup, it is!
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Like Eugene the Jeep.
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Reviving this topic since I like it as it's yet another unknown sound in my Jeep.
With the Jeep running pretty quiet, I have found another issue. It seems the coffee can sound I hear when lifting off in 5th gear might be 5th gear. If I'm on the power, it sounds fine. It also sounds ok when there is backpressure on the gear but if it's coasting while slowing down I get a rattle sound. If I apply the throttle, it goes away. So, I'm gonna guess it might be the 5th gear rattling on it's shaft. What say you?
Forgot to mention, it rattles when cruising at a steady speed but goes away when accelerating. I don't think it happens when in 4th or anything lower.
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do you hear it at the transmission - i say take the rubber booths off the transmission and t-case shifters (both upper and the bolted one) and see if you can hear it better then , will be way better for pinpointing the area where it comes from.
my guess is d/s or axle related but then again just guessing based on what you describe. If it was 5th would rather do it under load and low rpm (low speed in 5th) but you never know.
EDIT: could be transfer case related also i think
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do you hear it at the transmission - i say take the rubber booths off the transmission and t-case shifters (both upper and the bolted one) and see if you can hear it better then , will be way better for pinpointing the area where it comes from.
my guess is d/s or axle related but then again just guessing based on what you describe. If it was 5th would rather do it under load and low rpm (low speed in 5th) but you never know.
EDIT: could be transfer case related also i think
Hmm, but if it was the driveshaft or transfer case it should happen in all gears. Unless it's specific to a certain speed. I rebuilt the rear driveshaft last year so it's all new.
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Hmm, but if it was the driveshaft or transfer case it should happen in all gears. Unless it's specific to a certain speed. I rebuilt the rear driveshaft last year so it's all new.
i see your point, dunno then. I still think removing the rubber cover and boots will help but you're probably right that it's the transmission or the 5th more specific.
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Does it matter if you have the clutch in or out?
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Does it matter if you have the clutch in or out?
Haven't really thought about that. Not sure.
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OK, I played around with shifting at around 35-40MPH. Shifts fine into 5th and doesn't rattle even if I lug it. So I'm thinking it might be the rear bearing in the transfer case and the driveshaft angle. It's a bit steep though. This also might be the squeaking I get. (It's still a problem pin pointing it but it's from the rear-ish and the axle bearing is the only old bearing.) I do get a little wobble in the driveshaft if I lift it at the T-case. So what do you think? Driveshaft/transfer case? Am I gonna need a Atlas 4.0 now?
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My guess it's the play in the driveshaft. Either a SYE or an Atlas and CV driveshaft. Go for the Atlas!
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U joints are fairly cheap. Could start with them. Since your running a stock DS you could see it you could find a low mile take out for cheap if you think maybe the slip yoke is getting worn.
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My guess it's the play in the driveshaft. Either a SYE or an Atlas and CV driveshaft. Go for the Atlas!
Nope, not gonna put a SYE in there. I've put it off for decades, literally. I want a new transfer case eventually. Either an Atlas II 5.0 or a Atlas 4 10.34:1. The hanging point is if the AX-5 is OK and if I want to keep it. I'd hate to swap it in then find I need to swap it for some reason then have to send the Atlas in to get the input shaft swapped. (I don't think they sell them separately. It was around $200-300 to have done last I checked.) I think my AX-5 is OK though. Just gets tough to shift when the temp drop and it's not warmed up. Typical for the transmission. Also, I have to see how much work it will be to get a Atlas 4 in there and if I want to go with a flat skid plate. I don't have the tools to do major fabrication right now.
U joints are fairly cheap. Could start with them. Since your running a stock DS you could see it you could find a low mile take out for cheap if you think maybe the slip yoke is getting worn.
U-joints are new. And Spicers. Whatever it is it's causing a vibration at 65-70 mph that's making the rattling noise. I wonder if I rotated the slip yoke 180* when I put it back together.
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I wonder if I rotated the slip yoke 180* when I put it back together.
that can be checked if you lift one wheel off the ground, put the transmission in 3rd or 4th gear and watch the d/s spinning (given you have an open diff, if not then lift both wheels), should tell you if it's not centered. I know the cv is timed (ayou s in put together 1 way and can't be switched around or will wobble, didn't know that regular u-joints are the same but it could but then it makes you wonder what about the yoke side).
I have a strange noise too and cannot figure it out, sounds like a big 18 wheeler when just touching the brakes (not as loud but similar sound), however is not the brakes as i can press them with my left foot and no changes - only happens once in a blue moon and it goes away quickly, it's also very quiet so i can't pinpoint if it's front or rear, drives me nutz
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that can be checked if you lift one wheel off the ground, put the transmission in 3rd or 4th gear and watch the d/s spinning (given you have an open diff, if not then lift both wheels), should tell you if it's not centered. I know the cv is timed (ayou s in put together 1 way and can't be switched around or will wobble, didn't know that regular u-joints are the same but it could but then it makes you wonder what about the yoke side).
I have a strange noise too and cannot figure it out, sounds like a big 18 wheeler when just touching the brakes (not as loud but similar sound), however is not the brakes as i can press them with my left foot and no changes - only happens once in a blue moon and it goes away quickly, it's also very quiet so i can't pinpoint if it's front or rear, drives me nutz
It's too cold to go do this stuff right now so I'll put it off till it gets warmer.
I'm really wanting an Atlas 4.0 10:34 though. Have to look at neale's thread to see what's all involved. An Atlas has been on the board ever since it came out. I just didn't want to do anything till I've sorted out the axles and suspension. Now the suspension is about where I want it and the axles, well, I might keep the D44. I also don't want to move the engine forward as I might do an engine swap in the future(or not). DS's and TC have been pretty high on the list though. The rattling is definitely from the trans tunnel area. The squeaking is faint but is heard better with the pass side window open. I can't hear it on the driver side as well. So that might not be the TC.
** Ooo, they have an 11.70:1 now...
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I would recommend the 11.7, it's a better mix of ratios. IIRC, you are running a body lift, in which case I'm pretty sure you could fit the Atlas 4 speed with a pretty flat skid plate, probably with about 1" depth if not completely flat. Maybe your motor mount lift (IIRC) puts your drivetrain at a different angle so it might not work out the same way for you. Overall, I think the Atlas 4 speed install, with the stock skid plate, is easier than installing the Atlas 2 speed. This is because the 2 sp fits right over the center rib on the skid plate and will require some fab work to cut down the rib and weld it shut again. The 4 sp will fit behind the rib and require no skid plate mods (assuming it is straight, mine was bowed up in the middle). Doing the install with the stock skid plate will make things cheaper and quicker until you decide to fab a custom skid plate. Mine was replaced mainly because the mounting area where the tranny mount bolts go through was very rust damaged and it was pretty beat up in general.
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my D300 fits over the center rib and is clocked down, i only had to put a 1/4'' spacer under the transmission mount, i' don't think it's an issue with the Atlas since they are virtually the same as far as dimensions are concerned, i would think it's worthwhile to get the 4 speed though or go with a D300 & BlackBox-i combo for a cheaper but similar alternative. The nice thing about the Atlas is that it has synchros so you can shift it on the fly (to a certain extent of course, i wouldn't attempt that at 50mph :lol:)
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I would recommend the 11.7, it's a better mix of ratios. IIRC, you are running a body lift, in which case I'm pretty sure you could fit the Atlas 4 speed with a pretty flat skid plate, probably with about 1" depth if not completely flat. Maybe your motor mount lift (IIRC) puts your drivetrain at a different angle so it might not work out the same way for you. Overall, I think the Atlas 4 speed install, with the stock skid plate, is easier than installing the Atlas 2 speed. This is because the 2 sp fits right over the center rib on the skid plate and will require some fab work to cut down the rib and weld it shut again. The 4 sp will fit behind the rib and require no skid plate mods (assuming it is straight, mine was bowed up in the middle). Doing the install with the stock skid plate will make things cheaper and quicker until you decide to fab a custom skid plate. Mine was replaced mainly because the mounting area where the tranny mount bolts go through was very rust damaged and it was pretty beat up in general.
Hmm, good to know. I'll probably keep the stock skidplate for simplicity especially if it works without any modifications. Would I want a CV 1310 front or just stick with the regular setup? Not like it's really got an angle problem with the additional length. I'm sure I'll need a 1310 CV for the rear though. Actually I don't really need a MM lift if I have a CV joint at the rear. Although it does allow me to go flat and still retain the stock angle...
my D300 fits over the center rib and is clocked down, i only had to put a 1/4'' spacer under the transmission mount, i' don't think it's an issue with the Atlas since they are virtually the same as far as dimensions are concerned, i would think it's worthwhile to get the 4 speed though or go with a D300 & BlackBox-i combo for a cheaper but similar alternative. The nice thing about the Atlas is that it has synchros so you can shift it on the fly (to a certain extent of course, i wouldn't attempt that at 50mph :lol:)
Yeah, Shift-On-The-Fly is nice. The 231 4Hi is able to shift at 50-55MPH, IIRC. nice feature so you don't have to rock back and forth to get it into gear.
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Hmm, good to know. I'll probably keep the stock skidplate for simplicity especially if it works without any modifications. Would I want a CV 1310 front or just stick with the regular setup? Not like it's really got an angle problem with the additional length. I'm sure I'll need a 1310 CV for the rear though. Actually I don't really need a MM lift if I have a CV joint at the rear. Although it does allow me to go flat and still retain the stock angle...
Yeah, Shift-On-The-Fly is nice. The 231 4Hi is able to shift at 50-55MPH, IIRC. nice feature so you don't have to rock back and forth to get it into gear.
Mine seems to be free of vibrations with the non CV front yoke. The front DS was actually extended a bit, maybe about 1".
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Hmm, good to know. I'll probably keep the stock skidplate for simplicity especially if it works without any modifications. Would I want a CV 1310 front or just stick with the regular setup? Not like it's really got an angle problem with the additional length. I'm sure I'll need a 1310 CV for the rear though. Actually I don't really need a MM lift if I have a CV joint at the rear. Although it does allow me to go flat and still retain the stock angle...
there's no need for a CV in the front, the angles are just fine with mine and i have about 5'' of lift. You don't think you need a MM either with a cv rear d/s but i don't think will hurt, so if you have it might as well keep it (the Atlas 4speed or klune/blackbox and a D20 or 300 combo will result in a short rear d/s, in my case with just the d300 there is absolutely no problem, all my shaking and vibrations from a stop are gone once i got the CV rear d/s instead of the NP231 slip yoke crap).
Yeah, Shift-On-The-Fly is nice. The 231 4Hi is able to shift at 50-55MPH, IIRC. nice feature so you don't have to rock back and forth to get it into gear.
you can shift the front in Hi at that speed with the D300 as well, as long as the rear is in Hi and not in neutral, the syncro gears are used when shifting from Neutral to Hi or Lo , so problem is when you try to shift from hi to low or the other way around you go thru neutral you need to slow down (if not stop) to shift it, with the sychros the rotational speeds of the shafts will be equalized once you press the clutch, or if you're versed enough you could rev up the engine and try to match them. A syncro in the tcase won't be able to slow down or speed up the front axle output shaft if you have different tires or gear ratio, if these are the same then there's no problem, they are already spinning at the same speed if you're going straight. You don't need to rock back and forth either when shifting the D300, just release the clutch a tiny bit and will slide right in, same for 4Hi or 4Lo, but like i said not when rolling (i can shift it at about 3 to 5mph but nothing over that speed, tried once and it's noisy :)
I just remembered that the Blackbox does not have a 4:1 option which makes the combo with D300 short on ratio selections, otherwise i think it would be a fair alternative to the Atlas 4spd. Klune David is 4:1, but the combination is a bit longer than the blackbox (by about 2 or 3 inches if i remember correctly). If money is not an issue then Atlas is the way to go for sure.
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Mine seems to be free of vibrations with the non CV front yoke. The front DS was actually extended a bit, maybe about 1".
Are you using a stock shaft up front?
there's no need for a CV in the front, the angles are just fine with mine and i have about 5'' of lift. You don't think you need a MM either with a cv rear d/s but i don't think will hurt, so if you have it might as well keep it (the Atlas 4speed or klune/blackbox and a D20 or 300 combo will result in a short rear d/s, in my case with just the d300 there is absolutely no problem, all my shaking and vibrations from a stop are gone once i got the CV rear d/s instead of the NP231 slip yoke crap).
Well, the MM lift gives me the option to raise the transfer case up to gain more clearance but I don't really need more clearance, especially if I'm not crawling as much. I'd probably run it as is and then see if I want to raise it up later.
If I was to get a Atlas 4.0, I'd have to figure out what the lead time is. How long it will take to swap. How much fabrication if any is required and how much more will I need to spend on driveshafts. I'll probably need $300 for at least the rear. I need to research this some more and see if I can find some install posts.
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Are you using a stock shaft up front?
Well, the MM lift gives me the option to raise the transfer case up to gain more clearance but I don't really need more clearance, especially if I'm not crawling as much. I'd probably run it as is and then see if I want to raise it up later.
unless you cut the floor i don't think there's much room to go up (maybe 1'' or so and that's only if you keep the t-case clocked down on the drivers side) so i don' think you'd be willing to do that (just taking a wild guess here).
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unless you cut the floor i don't think there's much room to go up (maybe 1'' or so and that's only if you keep the t-case clocked down on the drivers side) so i don' think you'd be willing to do that (just taking a wild guess here).
I have a 1.25" body lift remember. I'll probably jsut clock it close to stock though. I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel.
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I have a 1.25" body lift remember. I'll probably jsut clock it close to stock though. I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel.
i have a 1'' body lift, this is what it looks like (actually a bit higher with the skid installed, don't have a picture of that)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Drivetrain_Upgrades/TCase_reinstalled_1.jpg)
with the Atlas you can go another inch up probably since the VSS output is not up top like with the D300 flipped. it might work with a flat skid and a stepped transmission mount like the ones on the 6 cyl, i am thinking of doing that but for now it's fine (maybe when the 6spd adapter is ready).
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i have a 1'' body lift, this is what it looks like (actually a bit higher with the skid installed, don't have a picture of that)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Drivetrain_Upgrades/TCase_reinstalled_1.jpg)
with the Atlas you can go another inch up probably since the VSS output is not up top like with the D300 flipped. it might work with a flat skid and a stepped transmission mount like the ones on the 6 cyl, i am thinking of doing that but for now it's fine (maybe when the 6spd adapter is ready).
Yeah, it looks pretty tight in there. As long as it clears the stock skid plate and body, I'll be happy even with the stock plate. The Jeep's not going to be a dedicated rock crawler so I can live with a few compromises.
neale or anyone else, how much of a difference was the yoke to pinion distance between the Atlas 4.0 and the NV231? I'm wondering if I can use my stock driveshaft or not.
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Yeah, it looks pretty tight in there. As long as it clears the stock skid plate and body, I'll be happy even with the stock plate. The Jeep's not going to be a dedicated rock crawler so I can live with a few compromises.
neale or anyone else, how much of a difference was the yoke to pinion distance between the Atlas 4.0 and the NV231? I'm wondering if I can use my stock driveshaft or not.
I think you are talking about the 4speed Atlas right? Not the 2 speed.
I would think the front would need to be made longer and since you don't have a CV shaft of the rear a new one made.
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I think you are talking about the 4speed Atlas right? Not the 2 speed.
I would think the front would need to be made longer and since you don't have a CV shaft of the rear a new one made.
From the pics it doesn't look that much larger then a 231. The 4:1 box looks a little larger then the planetary on the front of the 231. The Atlas II doesn't have the planitary so it's a lot closer.
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i think the atlas 4 spd is 1'' shorter than the np231 with sye, the klune + D300 (or D20 like Scott's) is about the same length as the 231 if i remember correctly
you can't reuse the stock d/s since you'll need a cv one and you also need splines between the yokes to address the up/down movement of the axle (so that's a whole new d/s like he ^ said).
my d/s came to 21'' long between yokes (or 21.5, can't remember exactly, i had both lengths written down but dunno what it came to, I have 7'' travel splines so not really important), i think the klune is 6 or 7'' long, the atlas 4 spd is probably an extra 4'' compared to the D300 but i think they have the super short output (I have the long one due to the VSS gear) so depending of what you go with you're looking at a d/s between 15 and 18'' long from yoke to yoke.
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Are you using a stock shaft up front?
Well, the MM lift gives me the option to raise the transfer case up to gain more clearance but I don't really need more clearance, especially if I'm not crawling as much. I'd probably run it as is and then see if I want to raise it up later.
If I was to get a Atlas 4.0, I'd have to figure out what the lead time is. How long it will take to swap. How much fabrication if any is required and how much more will I need to spend on driveshafts. I'll probably need $300 for at least the rear. I need to research this some more and see if I can find some install posts.
It is a new shaft (the old one had a lot of side to side play) but it is the same type as stock, single cardan.
I didn't find any install posts for Atlas 4 speeds in YJs, but you are better at finding stuff on the internet than me.
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neale or anyone else, how much of a difference was the yoke to pinion distance between the Atlas 4.0 and the NV231? I'm wondering if I can use my stock driveshaft or not.
The Atlas 4 speed (current redesigned version) is 18.8 inches long, about 2 inches longer than an NP231 with SYE. This will give you a rear drive shaft about 2" longer than stock (with slip yoke). It might be a bit much for the stock shaft.
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Here is a pic of the Atlas 4 speed installed. As you can see the vertical dimensions are pretty big, but the 1.25" body lift should make it pretty easy.
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q277/neale_rs/000_0573.jpg)
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The Atlas 4 speed (current redesigned version) is 18.8 inches long, about 2 inches longer than an NP231 with SYE. This will give you a rear drive shaft about 2" longer than stock (with slip yoke). It might be a bit much for the stock shaft.
What about the front? I'm not too worried about teh back since I'm going to have to get a CV driveshaft anyway. Just wondering if I can get by with the stock front.
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I never got the exact additional length that was added but I think it was about 1" or 1.5". It is close.
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I never got the exact additional length that was added but I think it was about 1" or 1.5". It is close.
Hmm, that's what I thought. It looked pretty close. The Atlas 2 is a lot closer which would require having the front cut down but with the Atlas 4, it seems pretty close.
I'm also wondering about the shifter for the doubler. Is there enough room or length to put it next to the two other sticks? You mentioned putting it in front and running is L/R instead of fore/aft. How about on the passenger side? I have a console in the middle that I'd like to keep so running it in the middle isn't possible. I've heard there is also an electronic solenoid available?
Oh and which tail housing did you get? Standard or HD?
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I've heard there is also an electronic solenoid available?
if it has a neutral (not sure if it has for the doubler box or not) then you'd lose it with the solenoid. I would think that a pneumatic actuator would be better than the solenoid though (you have a york so that wouldn't be an issue in your case you can probably fab something easily), but would be the same regarding neutral (not that you really need it since you can have the front/rear shifters in neutral if needed).
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if it has a neutral (not sure if it has for the doubler box or not) then you'd lose it with the solenoid. I would think that a pneumatic actuator would be better than the solenoid though (you have a york so that wouldn't be an issue in your case you can probably fab something easily), but would be the same regarding neutral (not that you really need it since you can have the front/rear shifters in neutral if needed).
Well, I don't need to make it overly complicated, either. ;) The doubler holds the 2.72:1 planetary.
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Hmm, that's what I thought. It looked pretty close. The Atlas 2 is a lot closer which would require having the front cut down but with the Atlas 4, it seems pretty close.
I'm also wondering about the shifter for the doubler. Is there enough room or length to put it next to the two other sticks? You mentioned putting it in front and running is L/R instead of fore/aft. How about on the passenger side? I have a console in the middle that I'd like to keep so running it in the middle isn't possible. I've heard there is also an electronic solenoid available?
Oh and which tail housing did you get? Standard or HD?
I didn't want it in front of the other TC levers because I thought I might have to yank on it once in a while but it is actually very easy to move the lever. It would probably work fine sideways in front of the other levers. another possibility is to put it on the left side of the driver's seat. The lever could be made so it is not as tall as the seat and probably wouldnīt be much in the way. On the passenger side next to the tranny shifter, I don't think there is enough space there underneath but if you fab an angled mount you could put it over the floor near there.
I got the standard tailhousing so that the speedometer would work like stock. If you get the short, you would need to figure out some other way to run your speedometer. For the front output the 4 speed comes standard with the HD 32 spline output, the 2 speed has that as an option but it costs extra.
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There seems to be an option for the HD tail housing that's a $245 option on the 4-speed. Both have provisions for the speedometer gear.
Optioned out it's going to be $3,361.00 and $78.88 to ship it. Pretty expensive piece. :yikes:
- 11.70:1
- LHD
- 21 Spline
- HD Tailhousing
- Rear 1310 CV
- Front 1310 Non CV
- Shifter Universal
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There seems to be an option for the HD tail housing that's a $245 option on the 4-speed. Both have provisions for the speedometer gear.
Optioned out it's going to be $3,361.00 and $78.88 to ship it. Pretty expensive piece. :yikes:
- 11.70:1
- LHD
- 21 Spline
- HD Tailhousing
- Rear 1310 CV
- Front 1310 Non CV
- Shifter Universal
did you look at Dana20 + klune david combo ? can save a chunk of cash, Scott can chime in with the install details, should be what he's running. not helical cut gears but i believe the advantage over D300 is that you don't need to flip it (that's what i recall he said but not sure).
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did you look at Dana20 + klune david combo ? can save a chunk of cash, Scott can chime in with the install details, should be what he's running. not helical cut gears but i believe the advantage over D300 is that you don't need to flip it (that's what i recall he said but not sure).
Yes, I've looked into that back when the mailing list was active. You have to use a Ford D20 to get the correct drop.
Honestly though I'll probably be happiest with the Atlas.
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There seems to be an option for the HD tail housing that's a $245 option on the 4-speed. Both have provisions for the speedometer gear.
Optioned out it's going to be $3,361.00 and $78.88 to ship it. Pretty expensive piece. :yikes:
That HD tail housings seems to be something new, hadnīt seen it before. It isn't even in their Tech Vault yet. The standard I believe is the base for the HD D300 tail housing they offer, so the HD tail housing for the Atlas must be something with some pretty impressive strength.
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The Atlas is a lot less work than the Klune D20. Plus the D20 hangs down more. I have mine clocked as high as can be and it still sits a bit below the frame rail.
What do you get with the HD tail housing for $245?
Is that 11:70 to 1 the 2.72 and 4.3? That would be a nice set up. The 3.8 would be ok too but if I was starting all over I'd go that route.
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Honestly though I'll probably be happiest with the Atlas.
no doubt is the best
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Saw this on 4wheel & Sport Utility. Looks like the shifter moves fore and aft by the looks of the knob but knowing the AA shifter it might shift L/R. I wonder if there is enough slack in the cable to mount the shifter in front of the others but fore and aft?
(http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/28064524/1005_4wd_02+1993_jeep_wrangler_YJ+shifters.jpg)
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there's room to have the doubler shifter between the f/r ones and the transmission, you might need to bend the f/r to the left a bit but it can fit. i think they even have an option with 3 shifters on the same shaft (saw that somewhere) and there's a triple boot for it, way nicer than the side to side solution.
another option is to go with a long cable and have it below the e-brake release handle (installed upside down) or maybe using one of the push/pull cable ones that replace the vac actuated front axle disconnect (not sure if it gives you enough leverage though but that would be nice if it can be made to work).
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Saw this on 4wheel & Sport Utility. Looks like the shifter moves fore and aft by the looks of the knob but knowing the AA shifter it might shift L/R. I wonder if there is enough slack in the cable to mount the shifter in front of the others but fore and aft?
(http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/28064524/1005_4wd_02+1993_jeep_wrangler_YJ+shifters.jpg)
That's the pic I had seen before. The problem with the position in the pic is that there is very little room under the dash for fore/aft movement. It might work if you make the lever very, very short. The cable is plenty long enough even to put it outboard of the driver's seat.
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(http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/28064524/1005_4wd_02+1993_jeep_wrangler_YJ+shifters.jpg)
though i am wondering why didn't this guy use the available space to the right of the f/r shifters? (just came to me)
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The transmission is under there. The cable shifter has a metal box that hangs under the floor, the lever pivots inside this box. That's the normal way to mount it. It can be mounted over the floor (like in my case) but a bracket needs to added (welded on in my case) to the bottom of that metal box so that it can be bolted down. The drawback to over the floor mounting is that an extra hole needs to be cut in the floor for the cable to pass through. With the normal, under floor, mounting the cable stays completely under the floor.
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What do you get with the HD tail housing for $245?
Is that 11:70 to 1 the 2.72 and 4.3? That would be a nice set up. The 3.8 would be ok too but if I was starting all over I'd go that route.
Also, how can the short tail housing be made any more HD? I would like to see a picture of these new options, but they don't seem to be on their web page yet.
Definitely go for the 2.72 x 4.3 = 11.7. It gives a much better ratio than the 3.8 with just the TC in low, 77:1 vs. 68:1 (with 4.56 in the diffs). It looks like enough to make a difference.
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Ok, here is the info on the HD output. It sounds like the tail housing itself is the same but the output shaft is stronger, 300M alloy.
Standard 32 Spline Atlas Tailhousing
The standard Atlas transfer case comes with a rear tailhousing that accepts a stock Jeep speedometer from Jeep vehicles 1987 & newer. Atlas units ordered for earlier Jeeps or other vehicles can order a mechanical drive speedometer housing. This housing is the same as an early style Jeep. To connect to this housing, a special cable fitting may be necessary. The speedometer provision on the Atlas also allows you to calibrate your speedometer for tire and gearing changes.
Heavy Duty 32 Spline Tailhousing
The HD Atlas rear tailhousing is basically the same as the standard housing with the exception on the output shaft. The output shaft in this tailhousing is manufactured out of 300M steel. This was introduced into our product line for a special aftermarket military vehicle. This high grade steel shaft is 130% stronger than our standard output. This kit is not necessary for most applications; however, for extreme horsepower and torque this Atlas HD tailhousing may be for you.
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The HD Atlas rear tailhousing is basically the same as the standard housing with the exception on the output shaft. The output shaft in this tailhousing is manufactured out of 300M steel. This was introduced into our product line for a special aftermarket military vehicle. This high grade steel shaft is 130% stronger than our standard output. This kit is not necessary for most applications; however, for extreme horsepower and torque this Atlas HD tailhousing may be for you.
I would agree that is is not needed for most people. I would save the money for drive shafts or something.
My output shaft is a 10 spline. I did have it cryo'ed and I do have a spare. So far so good.
Plus my buddy with his Klune/231 is running a SYE on his and I am pretty sure it's not a 32 spline one. No problems.
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The transmission is under there. The cable shifter has a metal box that hangs under the floor, the lever pivots inside this box. That's the normal way to mount it. It can be mounted over the floor (like in my case) but a bracket needs to added (welded on in my case) to the bottom of that metal box so that it can be bolted down. The drawback to over the floor mounting is that an extra hole needs to be cut in the floor for the cable to pass through. With the normal, under floor, mounting the cable stays completely under the floor.
Yeah, the box hangs down pretty far. Although my guess is that he wanted the shifters all on the left side.
(http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/9900459+w750+st0/0611_4WD_04_z+Atlas_4SP_Transfer_Case+atlas_shifter.jpg)
I'd hate to have to run all cables but it looks really clean.
(http://www.northwestfab.com/images/Product%20Pics/tripecablestand.JPG)(http://www.northwestfab.com/images/Shifter%20Kit/tripple/4.JPG)
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Ok, here is the info on the HD output. It sounds like the tail housing itself is the same but the output shaft is stronger, 300M alloy.
Standard 32 Spline Atlas Tailhousing
The standard Atlas transfer case comes with a rear tailhousing that accepts a stock Jeep speedometer from Jeep vehicles 1987 & newer. Atlas units ordered for earlier Jeeps or other vehicles can order a mechanical drive speedometer housing. This housing is the same as an early style Jeep. To connect to this housing, a special cable fitting may be necessary. The speedometer provision on the Atlas also allows you to calibrate your speedometer for tire and gearing changes.
Heavy Duty 32 Spline Tailhousing
The HD Atlas rear tailhousing is basically the same as the standard housing with the exception on the output shaft. The output shaft in this tailhousing is manufactured out of 300M steel. This was introduced into our product line for a special aftermarket military vehicle. This high grade steel shaft is 130% stronger than our standard output. This kit is not necessary for most applications; however, for extreme horsepower and torque this Atlas HD tailhousing may be for you.
Good to know. I didn't see that on their site. So I'll get the standard.
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(http://www.northwestfab.com/images/Product%20Pics/tripecablestand.JPG)
this is nice