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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: quicksand on November 13, 2011, 11:48:17 PM
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I might have ask this before I dont know. I have a 97 wrangler with many mods under the hood. I only have a 2 inch BB, along with 31s and factory 4.10 gears. I am currently really pleased with its power. Off the line she is fast, at wide open throttle its great, and at highway speeds and passing power no problem. One day I will like to get a real lift with bigger meats along with gear swap. But my BIG question here is should I do a electric fan swap or not. How reliable are they? Would you use flex a lite, or maybe a taurus fan.? Then I even thought why just reley on one fan maybe 2 smaller single fans side by side on seperate swicthes. Would I run them at same time? Or is running one small fan at a time enough to cool. O maybe its best to leave my belt driven fan as is. I guess I just dont want one more thing to go wrong out on the trail. I know who does right. But like I said before I am happy with my rigs current power, just cant imagine if I had a bit more power or even better gas mileage? Maybe I answered my own question. What do you think electric or not? Single fan or daul fan?
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I think that if you upgraded to an electric fan that would be a nice benefit. Will give you a little bit more performance and fuel efficiancy by having less strain on the motor but the thing that I think about is the less strain part. With the motor driven fan given that it gives you some in performance I think that it is HP wanting to be used. If it is there then use it to the full available potential. It only cost a few $$ to get a Taurus fan and wiring kit.
Right now I probably have one of the fastest 2.5 liter Jeeps in my town and if I can get more out of that little engine then I will get all that I can get out of it.
Also if you ever go swimming with your Jeep then from what I have heard, it is a good benefit to have an E fan because the motor driven fan can get sucked into the radiator. Is that right? What all upgrades to the engine have you done? I have done MSD ignition coil, 4.0 bored out TB bored out intake manifold with a port match, Fuel injectors out of a Lincoln Towncar for better atomization, Port and polish on the head and shaved off I think it was 13 thousandths off the head. cold air intake as well and a 136 amp alternator which does nothing for performance. My next step is the E fan.
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I think that if you upgraded to an electric fan that would be a nice benefit. Will give you a little bit more performance and fuel efficiancy by having less strain on the motor but the thing that I think about is the less strain part. With the motor driven fan given that it gives you some in performance I think that it is HP wanting to be used. If it is there then use it to the full available potential. It only cost a few $$ to get a Taurus fan and wiring kit.
Right now I probably have one of the fastest 2.5 liter Jeeps in my town and if I can get more out of that little engine then I will get all that I can get out of it.
Also if you ever go swimming with your Jeep then from what I have heard, it is a good benefit to have an E fan because the motor driven fan can get sucked into the radiator. Is that right? What all upgrades to the engine have you done? I have done MSD ignition coil, 4.0 bored out TB bored out intake manifold with a port match, Fuel injectors out of a Lincoln Towncar for better atomization, Port and polish on the head and shaved off I think it was 13 thousandths off the head. cold air intake as well and a 136 amp alternator which does nothing for performance. My next step is the E fan.
Yeah, the eFan will loosen up a couple of ponies. Not something you will feel off the line, but you may feel it on the highway... Also, it is true the fan gan get sucked into the radiator when fording a deep river or mud hole. I use a 3 position switch on mine, so that I can have the fan ON (low speed, which is more than enough to keep the little 4 banger cool even when out wheeling), OFF (for fording rivers and mud holes), and AUTO (which runs to a Delta Current Control unit, which adjusts the fan speed according to radiator temperature, and this is where mine sites 90% of the time).
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Yeah, the eFan will loosen up a couple of ponies. Not something you will feel off the line, but you may feel it on the highway... Also, it is true the fan gan get sucked into the radiator when fording a deep river or mud hole. I use a 3 position switch on mine, so that I can have the fan ON (low speed, which is more than enough to keep the little 4 banger cool even when out wheeling), OFF (for fording rivers and mud holes), and AUTO (which runs to a Delta Current Control unit, which adjusts the fan speed according to radiator temperature, and this is where mine sites 90% of the time).
Actually you do notice the difference off the line. The engine will spool up a little faster without the extra mass of the fan.
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with all that is done to my motor, i still noticed a difference when i went to the taurus fan. an electric fan will add power in all ranges and no matter what performance level youre at. you are taking drag off the motor which basically unlocks power you already have and are wasting on a manual fan. taurus fans are reliable and i trust mine on the trail.
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Well you guys are really convincing me on a E-fan, maybe a taurus fan. I cant imagine my lil rig being just a little faster. Would you recomend hooking it up to a relay along with a thermo or just straight inline with a off on swicth? O yeah what do you think of purchasing a taurus fan from ebay.
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Got mine from E-bay and the controler too. May want to read the FAQ on this.
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Controler ?
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Controler ?
To turn the fan off when it's not needed. Otherwise you gain nothing since you're shifting the load to the alternator.
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you're also going to hear a lot of noises you never noticed before, it's funny how much quieter it is without that mech fan continuously blowing air.
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So its quieter huh? As far as the controller is that not just a off on swicth? O yeah do I need a thermo automatic swicth that detects temps at thermostat or no? Do I just wire it direct to battery, fuse and off on swicth in cab?
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So its quieter huh? As far as the controller is that not just a off on swicth? O yeah do I need a thermo automatic swicth that detects temps at thermostat or no? Do I just wire it direct to battery, fuse and off on swicth in cab?
you need a thermostatic switch connected to a relay. I got a hayden 3651 (i think) which is a thread in probe with relay and adjustable ON temperature, lots of guys are using the "thru fins" probe since it doesn't require a hole to place the probe.
on/off switch sucks since there's no way you'd be able to keep your eyes on the temperature and switch it on when needed. All time on is like grumpy said, waste of energy since it is running all the time.
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Sounds good. Hey how is the hayden fan holding up for you. Do you know how many CFMs it has and what is the amp pull on that unit?
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Here in europe we use the fan from a peaugeot laguna 2.0 v8.
What if I just connect it to a termostat. Do I need the switch to be able to turn it off? I never go under water.
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Here in europe we use the fan from a peaugeot laguna 2.0 v8.
What if I just connect it to a termostat. Do I need the switch to be able to turn it off? I never go under water.
you don't need a switch
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Sounds good. Hey how is the hayden fan holding up for you. Do you know how many CFMs it has and what is the amp pull on that unit?
I don't have a Hayden fan, i have a nice Lincoln Mk-VIII fan which is gigantic, pulls a ton of CFM (can't remember exactly but nothing else came close when i looked into it).
I use a Hayden fan controller and the low speed on the mk8 fan (my low speed is thru a ballast resistor) - my fan pulls below 20 amps on low speed and below 30 on high speed, i tested this with 2 fuses, low speed held fine on the 20 amp fuse but blew on the high speed, replaced it with the 30 amp and held no problem. I am planning to get another controller for the high speed portion, but so far the low speed holds the temperature just fine - am thinking that in a really hot day under load might not be enough, for this time of year will be more than fine though.
the nice thing about the mk8 fan is the lower rpm (from what i can tell) and the well designed fan blades which makes it less noisy for the amount of airflow compared to the aftermarket fans - and on top of that is just perfect for the YJ/TJ radiator size covering it nicely with no empty spaces.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Radiator_and_EFan/NewRad_and_EFan_with_ofTank_psTank.jpg)
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Here in europe we use the fan from a peaugeot laguna 2.0 v8.
What if I just connect it to a termostat. Do I need the switch to be able to turn it off? I never go under water.
The engine's thermostat? You need one that will turn it on around 195-210* and turn off at anything less. An on an off switch is nice to have but if you're not planning on any foreseeable future water crossings then you can leave it out. Although the switch is cheap.
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The engine's thermostat?
he probably meant a thermostatic switch (that's what came to mind reading his post).
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he probably meant a thermostatic switch (that's what came to mind reading his post).
I was thinking one of the temp senders, ECM or the gauge.
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I was thinking one of the temp senders, ECM or the gauge.
if that's what he meant then no, you can't do that, at a minimum he'll need a thermostatic switch with a relay or a fan controller like the one i have (Hayden 3651) or the one you're using (can't remember the brand) or any of the other ones available out there.
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if that's what he meant then no, you can't do that, at a minimum he'll need a thermostatic switch with a relay or a fan controller like the one i have (Hayden 3651) or the one you're using (can't remember the brand) or any of the other ones available out there.
Mine's a Flex-A-lite but I'm sure they don't actually make it. http://www.amazon.com/Flex---lite-31147-Adjustable-Temperature/dp/B00029J3ZW/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1321393907&sr=1-2 Works fine once I switched from a ATC blade fuse to a Circuit Breaker.
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Mine's a Flex-A-lite but I'm sure they don't actually make it. http://www.amazon.com/Flex---lite-31147-Adjustable-Temperature/dp/B00029J3ZW/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1321393907&sr=1-2 Works fine once I switched from a ATC blade fuse to a Circuit Breaker.
Mine is close but its the 31165.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flex-a-lite-Variable-Speed-Controller-31165-/390363936161?hash=item5ae380f5a1&item=390363936161&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr
Do need to add a switch so I can shut it off if needed.
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In Tucson this summer, max air conditioning, stop and go in town, my Mk8 kept us cool on low speed. I just used a relay and a cheap temp switch.
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Not trying to go off topic here, but I have a question, along with my upgrades, cold air, bigger bore TB, spacer, and accel coil and more yada, yada, yada. I have that 42,000 volt coil, 8mm wires, with NGKs with bigger gap. I started gapping bigger little by little at first awhile back it was .037 then just recently it was gapped at .039 and as I was getting more air in with the TB bored a little more I gapped to .040 and she ran even better. Thats with good response, idle and top speed. OK so I just recently made a slightly bigger bore to my TB and she is running faster. The QUESTION IS should I gap my plugs a bit bigger to macth the air fuel ratio. what is considered to big a gap. I guess I want to macth the increase of air coming in to make sure air and fuel ignites completly. I now this can probably be done with a air/fuel meter or something but I dont have one. I was thinking of just bumping up the gap to .041 or is that unheard of ?
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Just remembed thats why that came to mind when I punch it going uphill the exhaust smells just a litle fummy like it did awhile back. Just got that little fummy smell since I just bored out TB a lil more.
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Sounds like u need an afr gauge and no that gap is not crazy j have had mine at 50 with no problems I run a simple narrow band just to get a rough idea what's going km hut if u want to be technical u can run a wide band o2
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Sounds good , so I sould be OK to try to gap to .041 or maybe .042. What would you say max is? Thanks
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i can't help you with the gap but just fyi your gap has nothing to do with your AFR (they are unrelated), you should always run the appropriate gap (whatever that is in your case with your coil setup) regardless if your AFR is 14.7 or 11 or anywhere in between. for what is worth with a larger gap and too rich of a mixture you're more likely to get misfires than with a smaller gap.
another note, having a larger t/b, intake, etc will increase your AFR (more air) and not the other way around (more fuel) so if you have fumes (black smoke) then something's wrong. on the other hand if you're not at WOT the afr will always be 14.7 unless you did something dramatic like running large injectors that cannot be compensated by the PCM fuel trims (or the other way around being lean with too small injectors) or if your O2 sensor is busted.
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i agree that gap doesnt affect afr dirrectly, but everythig fuel related will in the long run, and yes too big a gap is more likely to misfire if the spark sint strong enough to bridge the gap. he sounded like he was running to rich and a gauge is only real way to know
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Sounds good , so I sould be OK to try to gap to .041 or maybe .042. What would you say max is? Thanks
That will depend on the resistance in the wires and the output at the coil. For my PD system, I have my gap at 0.063"
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i agree that gap doesnt affect afr dirrectly, but everythig fuel related will in the long run, and yes too big a gap is more likely to misfire if the spark sint strong enough to bridge the gap. he sounded like he was running to rich and a gauge is only real way to know
i was replying to his post - should have included a quote
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Well maybe I thought wrong, but I thought that the computer learns the increase in air intake and then makes the adjustments in the right amount of fuel ratio. So is it not the air/fuel ratio combusted in the cylinder chamber. There for a good hot spark is needed to ignite that air/fuel in the chamber in order to explode the whole mixture, utilizing every bit of fuel, and making sure its all burned up. Thats why I was thinking of gapping just a little more. Thinking that the Little bit of fummy smell was fuel or left over gasses not being fully ignitied and there for wasted and coming out the exhaust pipe. Maybe I got it all wrong. either way I am going to try gapping a bit more. Remember my accel coil puts out 42,000 volts. I do run NGK v groove they have been good to me over the years.
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Well maybe I thought wrong, but I thought that the computer learns the increase in air intake and then makes the adjustments in the right amount of fuel ratio. So is it not the air/fuel ratio combusted in the cylinder chamber. There for a good hot spark is needed to ignite that air/fuel in the chamber in order to explode the whole mixture, utilizing every bit of fuel, and making sure its all burned up. Thats why I was thinking of gapping just a little more. Thinking that the Little bit of fummy smell was fuel or left over gasses not being fully ignitied and there for wasted and coming out the exhaust pipe. Maybe I got it all wrong. either way I am going to try gapping a bit more. Remember my accel coil puts out 42,000 volts. I do run NGK v groove they have been good to me over the years.
i'm not saying don't gap it more, i'm saying that you don't control the mixture by gapping your spark plug, so if you want 12AFR you won't be reducing the gap or the other way around - if your optimal gap is 40 (just an example, i'm not saying that is in your case) then make it 40 regardless of what your AFR is or you want it to be.
the mixture doesn't explode btw (or shouldn't explode) when it does you get knocking, the mixture burns and that's why you need spark advance (before piston TDC) to give it time to burn completely, higher rpm requires more spark advance as the piston cycle time is reduced and the mixture will still burn in the same amount of time (controlled burn that is and not instantaneous as in an explosion)
what your computer learns is the fuel trims in closed loop, if you go with larger intake then you get more air and the computer (PCM) will compensate with more fuel based on the O2 feedback - it will always target 14.7 AFR so it will not be too rich. In open loop (usually WOT and/or under acceleration) you will not be richer than before with a larger intake and better flow but if there is a difference and you reach a limit it will be leaner, in this case (open loop) the 'puter uses a pre-loaded fuel map (table) based on operating parameters and it does not use your narrowband O2 sensor feedback. If your mixture is richer then you have too much fuel somehow, that can be a choked intake or larger injectors or higher fuel pressure. If you get unusual exhaust fumes it can be rich mixture, incomplete burn or burning oil.
In open loop at WOT where you'd be making top HP the computer uses your MAP reading and the rpm to calculate the amount of oxygen that is cycled thru a piston, the way you could see if there is a "choke" in the intake would be to take a reading of your map sensor output with the engine stopped and the key in "run" position (it would be basically reading the atmospheric pressure), then to a test on the road at WOT and take another reading - if they are the same then your intake has good flow, if the latter is lower (voltage that is) then your intake has some flow issues.
now, what your computer cannot read is the volummetric efficiency (VE) of your engine, what that means is that usually at wot and at high rpm the amount of air taken in the cylinder at the end of the piston intake stroke is less compared to the amount of air that would be in that cylinder with the engine stopped, so if out of the factory it is 85% VE at WOT and 5000rpm and you make a bunch of changes to your intake to increase the flow and the new VE is 90% your PCM will not know about it and will deliver the same amount of fuel as before - this is all in "open loop", in closed loop the mixture will be compensated by the PCM based on O2 feedback like i mentioned before.
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I know that, thats what I said, Just kidding. Well spoken and well writen, makes sinse, thanks for for input and knowlegde. Yeah I probably just gonna gap a little bit bigger and find that sweet spot, Thanks a bunch.
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Will last nite I did regap my NGKs just a little bigger. They were set at .040 and just bumped up to .042. Ok very nice, it does not sound like much but again another difference I can feel. Smoother Idle, smoother crawl speed, Still good instance response off the line. Also still climbing quick to high speeds. I did top off the tank to check for any mileage changes and so far so good. I have not traveled far enough yet only 26 miles and the needle has barely moved, it is still pass the full mark. So hoping I have a decent mileage increase. But WoW she feels so much smoother. So far no misfires. It even got rid of most all of the bucking I used to get when it was cold at first take off in the morning. It does seem like I lost a little torque from 65 MPH to 75 but she still gets up to speed, but maybe its just smoother. I will continue test driving at this .042 gap. She feels good as if I gained some Horse or two. I just might be utilizing every little bit thats in there. O yes I am planing on upgrading to magnacor wires just to make sure all is at full fire/spark from the 42,000 volt coil. So all this time my coil was not beening used to full potential. Huh ?
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So having a larger gap on the plugs will help? Is there more of a gain with mods, without or doesn't matter? What would be the ideal gap or does that vary?
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all varies depending on setup. if you can support a big spark then it will benefit, if you cant then your just gonna misfre, all depends on what you got and how you set it up
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I forget what the factory coil puts out, I do know that in comparison a MSD coil for the TJ puts out 35,000 volts and my current accel coil puts out 42,000 volt. Of couse to support that spark for the very least you will need 8mm wires. I plan to swap to magnacor wires they are 10mm and have read good reviews on the materials used on them. Such as a thick special insulation to help prevent heat build up and hot spots along with there ability to carry a strong current, also say that dont carry any noise to radio and such, uh what do they call that noise supression or something like that. Man gotta save a few more pennys. Maybe for christmas?
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The MSD coil for the YJ is advertised at 40,000 volts and the accel is at 42,000. I only know this because I obsessed about both for about a month before I bought the MSD. I found better reviews for that one but kinda wish I had bought the accel.
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The numbers I got were for a TJ from summit racing. I guess its different for the YJ. 40,000 volts still sounds good and plenty to me. I not sure if I mentioned before but I will like to get a set of magnacor 8.5mm wires, I have heard good things about this wires. I just wanna make sure I squeezing out and getting every bit of juice I can get. As far as volts/ strong spark to the plugs.
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Magnacor? They haven't had that good of reviews. More of a tuner fanboy thing from what I've seen. You never hear od them outside import/tuner communities. I've heard their warranty sucks as well.
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Really WoW never heard that, thanks for your input, in your opinion what wires would you recommend. I currently run 8mm accel wires. O yeah what do you know about Live Wires?
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Really WoW never heard that, thanks for your input, in your opinion what wires would you recommend. I currently run 8mm accel wires. O yeah what do you know about Live Wires?
PD is fairly well known in the Muscle Car and 4x4 community for their HEI Distributor conversion. I've talked to Steve the owner through emails a few times.
I R&D the kit for the 2.5L which eventually went to market. I still run the complete PD kit and chose it over a MSD/Jacobs setup I used to own.
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Well thanks for that info I just might start looking that way for a set of wires. Do you also run a bigger gap on your plugs? and if you do what is working for you?
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Taylor Vertex wires are very very good quality, they are common on magneto fired sprint and drag cars.
Our Sprint has 112,000 volts and Its a very high current system. the wires are 15MM.
Magnecore wires are a similar wire, but I cant make the extra dollars work out. The taylors survive in close contact with headers well.
Dave
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Well thanks for that info I just might start looking that way for a set of wires. Do you also run a bigger gap on your plugs? and if you do what is working for you?
That will depend on the resistance in the wires and the output at the coil. For my PD system, I have my gap at 0.063"
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Wow .063, do you know how many volts there coil puts out?
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Wow .063, do you know how many volts there coil puts out?
They dont publish it, but they recommend gapping to 0.065"
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They dont publish it, but they recommend gapping to 0.065"
whoops meant 0.65".
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Man no misfires or nothing? Huh. Man how many volts? Mine right now is set a mere .042 and she feels pretty responsive and real smooth. Thats with accel coil rated at 42,000 volts, 8mm accel wires, NGKs. Humm maybe I try bigger gap?
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whoops meant 0.65".
Are you sure thats over 1/2". Kind of a big gap.
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Are you sure thats over 1/2". Kind of a big gap.
Yeah, it is, isnt it? :busted:
Im sure its. 065", though...
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Yeah, it is, isnt it? :busted:
Im sure its. 065", though...
Yup, missed a 0.
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I find it difficult to believe changing the plug gap by .002" can make a noticeable difference in performance.
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I run my plugs at .065 with the PD stuff. Works great....once I got the plug wires on the correct way. :whistle:
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Yep .002 made a difference, I know its hard to believe but every little bit adds up. Maybe I just entered a different heat range where it is truly running hotter. Remember I started gap at .037 then .039,.040 and sits at .042. Thats .005 increase all together. I probably had a choke hold on the accel coil & wires from the beginning. But now being utilized. Silly me.
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I find it difficult to believe changing the plug gap by .002" can make a noticeable difference in performance.
it's the sugar pills that make the difference
Maybe I just entered a different heat range where it is truly running hotter.
the heat range of a spark plug has nothing to do with the coil voltage or plug gap (totally unrelated).
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Yep .002 made a difference, I know its hard to believe
It's impossible to believe, there's sooooo many other variables that change each time you jump behind the wheel, there's no way the plug gap made a difference you will feel behind the wheel. You would need a dyno to see any change, and even then it's likely immeasurable. :slapfight:
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It's impossible to believe, there's sooooo many other variables that change each time you jump behind the wheel, there's no way the plug gap made a difference you will feel behind the wheel. You would need a dyno to see any change, and even then it's likely immeasurable. :slapfight:
I have to agree here; I doubt ONLY changing the plug (either gaping or heat range) will have any noticeable effect. Now, combine that with a stronger coil, better injectors, and better airflow (TB, spacer, exhaust, etc.) and then you will feel a difference. But by itself, I find it hard to believe...
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OK sorry I said that wrong, I did not mean heat range as in different heat ranges for spark plugs, I meant the intensity of my spark/NGKs gapped at .042. Not saying that was the only thing that bump up my performance. It was there the whole time with my existing mods. Yes bigger TB, TB spacer, Catback, magnaflow, accel coil and wires, NGKs, cold air intake. other little stuff like insulated air tube etc etc. Yeah I dont feel the gain just from a bigger gap of .002 alone. It is in conjuction with my existing mods. Brought the existing mods to full potential. Also along with getting a little more air from the modified 62mm TB along with the bigger spark plug gap. My lil power plant squeezing and utilizing every bit of juice it has at this current set up. So It feels like a big difference when every thing is tuned and adjusted and tweeked just right. Like for example how can a 42,000 volt coil be at full hot spark if the spark plug gap is to small. All I am saying its all working in sync at full potential and I can feel the difference. Thats a good thing right.
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Well, depends on RPM , on a race engine turning 7500 you dont run a .065 gap, you run like .030.
The spark duration is longer with a narrow than a wide gap "usually"
Dave
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Thanks good info to know, that might explain a few things and changes I feel. Thank you sir. Hope you had a good thanksgiving.
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I found in the facts section for the screamin demon coil that it is beasured at 50,000 volts. I publishe the link in my spark plug gap thread.
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Wow 50,000 volts, I want one sounds good to me. I will look for that section, Thanks
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Wow 50,000 volts, I want one sounds good to me. I will look for that section, Thanks
Call it bad luck, bt my Jeep runs better with the OEM coils than these ones. I think its because of the impedance, but not sure...
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Call it bad luck, bt my Jeep runs better with the OEM coils than these ones. I think its because of the impedance, but not sure...
I had an accel on mine and went back to stock. You could smell something Electrical Burning. and it would start misfiring. Put the stock one back on and its ran great.
I wanted the kit because of the better Distributor cap that it has. As all I've found are the cheap ones with the Aluminum contacts on the inside.
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Huh I have been running my accel coil for the last 7 years with no problem. Its amazing how some things work great for some and crappy for others.
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I tore apart a Accell "Super Coil" a few years ago, it had a Echlin standard coil inside...
Cheers
Dave
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What are you serious, OK what do you believe is the best coil for a TJ ?